Should I be complaining to my building surveyor?

[John D v2.0]

Basically a survey will make every component of your house sound equally bad. Ours just gave nearly everything an amber or red rating and some of the things just said requires maintenance but no further detail. Just about the only thing that was "adequate" was the conservatory which we pulled down anyway.
When I called up the surveyor to find out what was what he said he was glad I called and he hoped it didn't put me off as it's a decent house. From the survey I thought he wanted me to run a mile!
Did you talk to the surveyor to discuss the report afterwards?

 

[^woody^]

Basically a survey will make every component of your house sound equally bad. Ours just gave nearly everything an amber or red rating

You had a homebuyers report, not a proper survey.

What has tended to be lost in the RICS's dumbing down of reports, is that context is lost. The whole idea of a survey is not just to write down what is there and it's condition, but to give opinion on the releveance of that for the client. To give everything some context forthe client.

Fear of litigation is also a big worry for surveyors and their insurers. This often means that surveyors are often reluctant to actually say anything that could be wrong. So they love to stick to the templates. And surveyors are not permitted to comment on anything outside their expertise. That is why "investigation and report by a specialist xxxx" is often noted on reports. However, surveyors do tend to be quite narrow in defining their own expertise, when they should be more wide ranging.

There is also an element of customer expectations too, in that many clients want a glossy 30 page report to equate to some sort of value in spending £400. So the surveyor needs to waffle and pad out what would fit on a page of A4.

The trick is to determine exactly what the client wants to know and needs to know and structure the survey and report on that basis. The standard surveys don't tend to do that.

 

[John D v2.0]

Thanks Woody. To be fair he did call me before to discuss my requirements and then told me to call him once I had the report to go through it. But it was still pretty generic. The neighbors said he spent a good 4 hours or so.
The only thing he missed that he shouldn't have was the ground levels all round were higher than the dpc, and most of the air bricks were blocked. But even if he told me, I'd have done the same thing ie bought a breaker and ripped it up.

 

[wessex101]

And of course the elephant in the room, the vast majority of surveyors who do residential survey work, especially Home Buyers Reports are General Practice Surveyors not Building Surveyors. With recent further dumbing down they don't even need to be fully qualified anymore, they can be associate level.

I don't know what it is like these days but the training for GP surveyors used to be all about commercial property - valuations, leases, landlord and tenant etc. Absolutely nothing on building defects and pathology.

I always advise people to use a local independent Chartered Building Surveyor. But you need to pay around £1000 for a decent survey and with these big national firms doing them for £300 the phrase peanuts and monkeys springs to mind.

 

[d000hg]

Basically a survey will make every component of your house sound equally bad...
Did you talk to the surveyor to discuss the report afterwards?

Yes. He said the roof and a retaining wall were worrying him and should be looked at by specialists.

You had a homebuyers report, not a proper survey.

When I discussed this with a couple of surveyors they said the survey done in each case is very similar, but the full survey the report will give guidance on what is needed to remedy issues and likely costs. Since the chap didn't even notice our issue I don't think either type would've made any difference!

And of course the elephant in the room, the vast majority of surveyors who do residential survey work, especially Home Buyers Reports are General Practice Surveyors not Building Surveyors. With recent further dumbing down they don't even need to be fully qualified anymore, they can be associate level.

I always advise people to use a local independent Chartered Building Surveyor. But you need to pay around £1000 for a decent survey and with these big national firms doing them for £300 the phrase peanuts and monkeys springs to mind.

Well I went with a reputable, well known local firm who are specialist surveyors. From memory they quoted £800 and £1100 for Homebuyer and building survey respectively. I chose them in preference to a cheapo £400 one but then they farmed the work out to someone else.

 

[d000hg]

The complaints procedure is written in the standard T&C's that you agreed to - either in the report or on a separate sheet.

What I'm wondering is if I should complain initially, or just talk to them basically. I don't know at this point what I'm hoping to achieve so I want to notify them and see what their response is first, ideally.

 

[^woody^]

When I discussed this with a couple of surveyors they said the survey done in each case is very similar

They are completely different. A HomeBuyer report is a template where the surveyor fills in some boxes with some standard text.

A building survey with a proper survey report is much more in-depth in terms site survey and report content,and is not limited to a strict template and phrases. A building survey can also be adapted to report on any special requirements that the client wants to know about.

 

[d000hg]

I was looking through the survey report and found in the appendix, the photo above. I think this is the one on the far right of this photo below, while the really bad one is on the left:

However :

1. Even the right-hand one is pretty corroded at the base, which he didn't photo
2. The base of this pillar is blocked by a single small piece of wood i.e. not at all
3. The room is not full of crap blocking access to the pillars.

You can see I subsequently removed the plasterboard to inspect more fully but this didn't impact the visibility of the really rotten aspects.

 

[^woody^]

What I'm wondering is if I should complain initially, or just talk to them basically. I don't know at this point what I'm hoping to achieve so I want to notify them and see what their response is first, ideally.

Surely you know what you want to complain about, rather than just moaning for the sake of it?

Are you concerend that the surveyor wrote one sentance on the corroded column instead of two, or are you worried that the floor will fall down, or that you paid too much for the property based on his poor report?

 

[d000hg]

I'm worried that they didn't pick up on something pretty obvious which is going to have a non-trivial cost to remedy at a structural level, beyond normal maintenance expected on an older property. Not just the very obvious exposed damage, but the likelihood this might mean the ceiling itself has similar damage - that I wasn't made aware of the former or advised to get a further survey of the latter.

However since I have no idea what might happen in such cases I don't know what I'm hoping for... to get some sort of refund, to claim on their PI, etc. My understanding is that the point of a survey is not just to find problems, but to offer some protection if they miss obvious things in terms of a sort of insurance. Since my mortgage required a survey be performed, there's quite a lot resting on the report (as well as on the beam).

My query is whether to initially instigate their complaints process, or to write more informally advising them of my concern in case we can avoid this, which I assume they would rather do?

 

[^woody^]

That whole framework of columns and beams is severly corroded.

That corrosion is caused by very poor ventilation, and that recent floor insulation has not helped, but made things worse.

The point is that the surveyor should not be just saying that the column has some corrosion, but he should be telling you why. So it is not that you just need to paint on a bit of hammerite, but need to deal with the underlying cause.

The work you will need to do is replace the column, and possibly any other steelwork too. If you are happy to do that, and can sudenly find a few thousand pounds then just do it.

If however, you feel that this unknown cost puts you at a loss, and the advice you got led to this loss, then that might be something to complain about.

But TBH, you really dont seem to know what you want. So just moving on, paying for a structural engineer's report, getting some design calculations drawn up, submitting a building regulations application and fee, getting builders in to replace the whole lot and then making everything good, might be a better option.

 

[chappers]

I don't know what it is like these days but the training for GP surveyors used to be all about commercial property - valuations, leases, landlord and tenant etc. Absolutely nothing on building defects and pathology.

Exactly and the reasons for this are the level of responsibility they have to both parties in the deal, caveat emptor doesn't really exist in the same context in a commercial deal the surveyor is ultimately responsible and must be able to back his findings up with professional indemnity. In a commercial context he wouldn't be able to say I couldn't see it because there was stuff in the way.

I always advise people to use a local independent Chartered Building Surveyor. But you need to pay around £1000 for a decent survey and with these big national firms doing them for £300 the phrase peanuts and monkeys springs to mind.

I would expect £1000 wouldn't even get the surveyor out of his car on a commercial deal, we have quotes ranging from £990-£2600 for a plain commercial valuation to satisfy the bank and this is on a 20% LTV.

If the OP had asked for a full structural survey then yes this should most definitely have been covered

 

[d000hg]

Well, we were under the impression it was an old but fundamentally sound structure (we think the steels and concrete floor must be getting on for a century old). We were aware from the survey that e.g. the roof was original and may need major work/replacement, and that the windows were original too - so we factored those likely costs into our offer for the place.

Had we been aware this floor/supports was unsound and needed urgent remedial work, our offer would have been revised - simple as that. I would not expect a surveyor to pull the ceiling down to inspect the concrete floor and hidden steels but I would have expected him to advise it BE inspected - the moment I realised the uprights were so damaged that is exactly what I did which seems common sense to me.

As it is, I was able to get a structural engineer through a mate to take a look for free. He said only that one upright needs replacing immediately, but the others will do and also the cross-pieces concerned him - as well as the unknown state of the concrete floor which had crumbled in one place exposing rusty iron work (danger of spalling). His suggestion was that removing the whole floor and ironwork and replacing with a wooden floor would be easier than getting experts in to inspect and repair an ageing, dubious structure. Which is a big job and most inconvenient as the room above would be out of commission too!

I don't think I can realistically suggest someone else should pay for a proper structural survey as that is something I might've done if the survey recommended it - but the fact no indication this issue existed was given means as you say, I need to find a few £thousand I had not budgeted on.

 

[d000hg]

For completeness, our plan was to have this room converted... not for living space but for a gym or home brewing. I had been considering tanking, etc. The isue now is we cannot do any work without knowing the true state - in case we have to do major repairs later. The upright clearly needs replacing but that is presumably quite easy... however if the concrete slab needs substantial work...

I would ideally like to remove those uprights or have a single RSJ supported at each end, which would mitigate some repair costs anyway. But all my assumptions were based on the slab being sound which I had no reason to doubt from the survey.

 

[wessex101]

With your photo above, can you prove the room was that empty when the surveyor did his inspection?

What was the room like when you did your initial viewing? Did you take any photos at the time? Do the estate agents particulars include a photo of that room? I am struggling to believe that if the surveyor flagged up the fact that the right hand column was corroded that he failed to notice the left hand column was holed at the base unless it was concealed. Maybe I'm wrong and he was just a complete dingbat, it does happen.

The onus is on your to drive the process and push for the outcome you want. The surveyor will not just put his hands up and say "its a fair cop, here have a cheque for £5k". He quite rightly will try to defend his position unless you can prove otherwise.

I would have an initial chat to gauge their response but judging by your posts I think you will need to pay for a structural engineer's report to itemise and cost the remedial works required to pursue a claim.