shower cubicle tiles comming off

[goofy gorilla]

Hi - we had an extension built around 5 years ago...new bathroom, internal walls of the bathroom were big grey blocks i think called thermalite blocks...inside of bathroom was bonded and finish with skimming....i have a shower cubicle installed, now the other sides of the shower cubicle wall is a small hallway and the wall here is getting a white powdery stuff on , the room next to the other cubicle wall side has paper started to peel off and feels damp...ive come to the conclusion thats the water over the years has penetrated between the tiles and grout..tiles move in som places if you press on them and the grout is starting to crack.....aquaboards is the solution i have been reading about...also would i have to remove the entire shower cubicle, tray etc ?....or can i just work inside the shower cubicle., ie remove what tiles i can .....might be a big job then i can handle...maybe seek some help from a reputable tiler ?...cheers

 

[Karis]

Hi - we had an extension built around 5 years ago...new bathroom, internal walls of the bathroom were big grey blocks i think called thermalite blocks...inside of bathroom was bonded and finish with skimming....i have a shower cubicle installed

If you’re tiling walls a plaster finish is not ideal as it has weight limitations which can be a problem if you’re using large/heavy format tiles.

now the other sides of the shower cubicle wall is a small hallway and the wall here is getting a white powdery stuff on , the room next to the other cubicle wall side has paper started to peel off and feels damp...ive come to the conclusion thats the water over the years has penetrated between the tiles and grout..tiles move in som places if you press on them and the grout is starting to crack.....

You’ve got it about right; when you strip it all off you’ll most likely find one hell of a mess behind the tiles. Do you know what tiling materials were originally used? Cheap DIY materials are mostly crap & rarely go the distance so it’s important you use only quality trade materials of the correct type for your tiles & tile base.

aquaboards is the solution i have been reading about...also would i have to remove the entire shower cubicle, tray etc ?....or can i just work inside the shower cubicle., ie remove what tiles i can .....might be a big job then i can handle...maybe seek some help from a reputable tiler ?...cheers

If you really do mean Aquaboard then that’s not ideal either, it’s only moisture resistant plasterboard & will need tanking in a wet area or you will most likely get the same result again in the not too distant future. If you mean Aquapanel then that’s fine, it’s a waterproof cement backer board made by the same company (Lafarge) & is suitable for wet areas, you can tile straight onto it but you need to think about fixing as it cannot just be dot & dabbed. It must be mechanically fixed, either onto battens on the wall or you can use through (frame) fixings screwed through adhesive dabs but you have to take a few precautions. Trying to work around the shower tray & cubicle won’t give a satisfactory job, you need to strip everything out & start again. You will most likely find that the plaster has also failed behind the tiles in which case it will all have to come off, you can then fix the backer board directly to the blocks. Edges must be fully supported & joints reinforce taped, avoid the tile grout lines coinciding with board joints. Use a silicone bead where the walls meet & around the tray, grout it will crack with differential movement between the two.

The walls must be allowed to dry out before you do any remedial work, 4 weeks at least but could be longer if the water has penetrated right through the blocks. If it’s that bad, I wouldn’t be surprised if the plaster on the other side of both walls fails, it will probably need re-plastering once it’s all dried out, removing it will also assist drying time.

 

[goofy gorilla]

the tiles used were from wickes, not heavy at all, 6x9 i think they are...were dot and dabbed onto the finishing...in fact none of the tiles have fallen off yet but you can see that the grout is failing as there seems to be fine cracks in the grout lines and some minimal movement in some of the tiles...ill post a picture of my shower unit...i will probably remove the the entire shower enclosure along with the fittings and tray, thermostatic bar shower...might get someone in to do it..

 

[Karis]

think they are...were dot and dabbed onto the finishing... in fact none of the tiles have fallen off yet but you can see that the grout is failing as there seems to be fine cracks in the grout lines and some minimal movement in some of the tiles

The tile size should present no problems over plaster but no decent tiler let alone a pro would use dot & dab to fix tiles, especially in a wet area. It’s just a recipe for disaster & will be the prime cause of your tile failure. It's also why you’ve got so much water penetration into the blockwork & the fact that none of the tiles have fallen off yet is near a miracle. Tiles fixed in wet areas require a solid thin bed adhesive fix & it’s also worth remembering that, apart from expensive epoxy products, even the very best waterproof adhesive & grout is only waterproof in the sense it won’t disintegrate when it gets wet, it’s not impermeable & will still absorb water.

i will probably remove the the entire shower enclosure along with the fittings and tray, thermostatic bar shower...might get someone in to do it..

I think that’s your only option, start again & do it properly. Be careful how you chose your tiler, many who say they are simply haven’t got a clue & I suspect whoever did the D&D job on your tiling was probably one of them! Give some thought to what size tiles you’re going to fix with & plan your tile base & product choice accordingly.

 

[goofy gorilla]

ill have the same tiles, hopefully ill manage to save some and buy some from wickes...yes i meant aquapanels...heres some pics...anyone around the brum area can give me a price..?

 

[Karis]

Presumably taken before the tiles started falling off the wall!

D&D tiles should be easier to remove but you’re still likely to have some casualties. Assuming Wickes still stock the same tiles, a problem you may have is that a different batch may not be a perfect match & may even look completely different up against the ones you have now. Get some decent addy & grout rather than the Wickes stuff.

 

[goofy gorilla]

actually taken yesterday....some tiles did fall off but i stuck them back on...now..the grout has cracked in places and the tiles can be heard hitting the wall when i gently push on them...looks like theyll drop off any day...
time for aquapanel me thinks..

since the wall are thermalite blocks which were bonded then skimmed, can i just attach the aquapanels straight onto the walls with some fixings or shall i use battons ?....mind you the doors of the shower are pretty heavy so im leaning more towards battons along the wall also will give me some support when hanging the doors back on...i was thinking of using some slightly wider battons where the doors are gonna hang, this will give me a soild base where to hange the doors from and at the same time the aquapanel will also screw in....2 x 38mm x 144mm x2.4m for the section where the doors are going to hang and 4 x 38mm x 63mm x 2.4m for the other 4 vertical battons...

just pricing up the bits i need, ive worked out that i only need 4 aquapanel boards from wickes, along with battons, aquapanel screws ceramic, knauf joint tape...is it a good idea to seal the joing aquapanel boards with a bead of silicone sealant ?...ive been reading conflicting views reagarding this.....or shall i apply the joining tape over the joints and use tile adhesive over the joints ?...

sorry for so many questions just dont wanna mess this up as its been messed up already....cost me lots of money before lol..

 

[Karis]

You can fix directly fix Aquapanel; temporarily fix the panels using dot & dab drywall adhesive (I use a 200mm x 200mm grid pattern) then use through (frame) fixings to mechanically fix the panels to the wall. Allow the adhesive to set overnight & you must fix through the adhesive dabs or you’ll crack the board when you tighten the screws. You will obviously have to make sure the fixings for the shower doors are long enough to give good penetration through into the block work.

I never bother with the Knauf ceramic screws when fixing to battens, I use ordinary plasterboard screws & have never had a problems.

Some use silicone but not much will stick to it including tile adhesive, could give problems if you spread it around too much. I use a couple of overlapping strips of plaster board reinforcing tape & bed it with tile adhesive just before I tile, force the adhesive well into the mesh, again never had any problems.

Avoid the board joints coinciding with tile grout lines as far as is possible.

 

[tpt]

if you take them off and fine the plaster\board is ok and undamaged, or even of a good enough state to patch then you could tank the wall instead of ripping out. a diy tanking kit will cost you 40-60 quid and will be a lot quicker.

depends on what you find though

 

[goofy gorilla]

im leaning towards using battons as i feel it will be more of a secure and solid fix..im sure the wall behind the tiles at this moment is not bad at all...i remember when a few tiles fell off that the tiles only took off little bits of the finishing off..the problem areas at the moment seem to be tiles at waste level and down towards the shower tray...ive loooked underneath the shower tray and its bone dry....also if using dot and dab how much do you put on the board ?...ive also found that there are 2.4m lengths of aquapanel...avauilable which would mean i only need two boards lol, with just 1 joint in the corners...havnt found them locally though, just 1.2m lengths.

how will the thermostatic shower be fitted onto the aquapanel ?...will drilling 15mm holes for the water pipes weaken the board and let water through ?...also when hanging shower doors, fittings like the shower unit itself, soap dish, shelving etc...it may be possible that you hit a void behind the aquapanel where there is no dot and dab adhesive and could crack the panel???????....or am i thinking to much into this project...lol

whats the best waterproof tile adhesive and grout for this job ?


cheers

 

[Karis]

also if using dot and dab how much do you put on the board ?...ive also found that there are 2.4m lengths of aquapanel...avauilable which would mean i only need two boards lol, with just 1 joint in the corners...havnt found them locally though, just 1.2m lengths.

I use 1.2m boards, 2.4m board are going to be very heavy! Also consider if you can actually get them up any stairs & into the room easily!

how will the thermostatic shower be fitted onto the aquapanel ?...will drilling 15mm holes for the water pipes weaken the board and let water through ?

No but if your using 15mm copper you will need holes larger then 15mm, I drill 18mm holes & seal then to the pipe stubs with silicone. Do not use hammer action when drilling tiles or Aquapanel.

...also when hanging shower doors, fittings like the shower unit itself, soap dish, shelving etc...it may be possible that you hit a void behind the aquapanel where there is no dot and dab adhesive and could crack the panel???????....or am i thinking to much into this project...lol

You need to plan where you’re going to fit items to the wall & provide timber battens behind the paneling. Soap dishes are a bit old hat now, I usually fit a quadrant glass tray in the corner at high level for shampoo, shower gel bottles etc.

whats the best waterproof tile adhesive and grout for this job ?

There are several good trade products around, I use BAL but Webber, Granfix & Mapei (but not the stuff sold in B&Q) I know to be good but you must use the correct type of adhesive for your tiles. The thing to avoid is cheap DIY products as they are mostly inferior; you tend to get what you pay for with tiling products.

 

[goofy gorilla]

thanks "Karis" your advice and knowledge is appreciated....seems that i got most of the answers to my questions just need some time to do the work...hopefully ill put up some pics up o when ive done the...oh by the way wont be carrying the 2.4m aquapanels up stairs...bathroom is on the ground floor easy access, but like i said i trying to locate some 2.4m boards but seem to be hard to find..

 

[Karis]

No problem, just come back if you need more advice

 

[goofy gorilla]

No problem, just come back if you need more advice

lol..no doubt i will..im gonna go for a bal tile adhesive...narrowed down to the following

ready mixed

BAL GRIP or BAL WHITESTAR


these u mix your self:

BAL SUPERCOVER RAPIDSET
BAL REAPIDSET
BAL WALL AND FLOOR
BAL CTF4


no doubt theres lots more but what would you suggest is suitable for my usage? bear in mind some of the prices are astronomical..lol

 

[Karis]

what would you suggest is suitable for my usage?

Can you confirm if the tiles are ceramic or porcelain & what size & thickness they are?

bear in mind some of the prices are astronomical..lol

you tend to get what you pay for with tiling products.

Topps stock BAL but their prices are eye watering if your not trade, you need to negotiate a discount or shop around; try your local trade tile outlet. Internet can be cheap but delivery charges may not make it worthwhile for a small order.