H
holmslaw
..
Single switch wiring to double switch wiring causing issues
- Thread starter PingCrosby
- Start date
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dannyboi2003,
That would be marvellous - thanks for all your help.
PS..thanks for everyones comments etc..
That would be marvellous - thanks for all your help.
PS..thanks for everyones comments etc..
Ping,
We need some more information about this, are any of the circuits at the CU turned off? and has any of the wiring at the double switch been modified? Finally is it possible to get a picture of the garage light and its wiring (cover removed from light if possible) ??
If any circuits are isolated this may explain why the garage light isnt working, i would gues at least one must be if the single switch has been left disconnected.
Holmslaw - based on what i can see i still maintain the garage light is a separate issue, however lets await the further information ive asked for.
We need some more information about this, are any of the circuits at the CU turned off? and has any of the wiring at the double switch been modified? Finally is it possible to get a picture of the garage light and its wiring (cover removed from light if possible) ??
If any circuits are isolated this may explain why the garage light isnt working, i would gues at least one must be if the single switch has been left disconnected.
Holmslaw - based on what i can see i still maintain the garage light is a separate issue, however lets await the further information ive asked for.
All circuits at CU are on, aside from the "alarm" circuit, which is now dead anyways (wiring removed).
The feed to the single switch comes directly out of the CU and I am assuming it is on the lighting ring. I have not removed the CU cover to find out nor have I put a multimeter on the circuit to test.
The wiring at the "double switch" has never been touched. It is as i found it.
Neither the garage light nor the outside light work...however... I must confirm that (a) The bulb in the outside light may be dead, (b) I have not tested the outside light circuit with a multimeter. I will do these tests when I get home to confirm.
The single switch has never been left disconnected, I just did removed the switch for my photo.
If I can do anything else let me know, I am at work at the moment. As soon as I can I will take pictures and make more notes.
Steve
The feed to the single switch comes directly out of the CU and I am assuming it is on the lighting ring. I have not removed the CU cover to find out nor have I put a multimeter on the circuit to test.
The wiring at the "double switch" has never been touched. It is as i found it.
Neither the garage light nor the outside light work...however... I must confirm that (a) The bulb in the outside light may be dead, (b) I have not tested the outside light circuit with a multimeter. I will do these tests when I get home to confirm.
The single switch has never been left disconnected, I just did removed the switch for my photo.
If I can do anything else let me know, I am at work at the moment. As soon as I can I will take pictures and make more notes.
Steve
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Hi Ping,
Thanks for the extra info, when you get home can you snap a pic of the garage light and wiring then post it here. The mystery deepens....
Cheers
Dan
Thanks for the extra info, when you get home can you snap a pic of the garage light and wiring then post it here. The mystery deepens....
Cheers
Dan
Update...
1) Using a multimeter i can confirm that the single switch light turns on/off the outside light and the the RHS switch on the double switch turns on/off the outside light appropriately.
1a) The outside light circuit is working as intended - albeit dangerous. I intend to replace this with properly earthed cabling asap. At the moment its 2 core to a metal light - makes me uncomfy somewhat (esp with kids around)
2) Putting a probe on the "garage light" switch terminals there is no voltage whatsoever flowing regardless of the combination of switching.
The proper switching arrangement in the double switch is .... (reading it with the lettering the correct way up)
TOP ROW (left to right)
L1 --> Black --> To garage light
L2 --> UNUSED
CN -->Brown --> To outside light
BOTTOM ROW (left to right)
CN --> Red --> To garage light
L1 --> Black --> From single switch
L2 --> Red --> From single switch
Double switch arrangement
LHS --> Garage light
RHS --> Outside light
1) Using a multimeter i can confirm that the single switch light turns on/off the outside light and the the RHS switch on the double switch turns on/off the outside light appropriately.
1a) The outside light circuit is working as intended - albeit dangerous. I intend to replace this with properly earthed cabling asap. At the moment its 2 core to a metal light - makes me uncomfy somewhat (esp with kids around)
2) Putting a probe on the "garage light" switch terminals there is no voltage whatsoever flowing regardless of the combination of switching.
The proper switching arrangement in the double switch is .... (reading it with the lettering the correct way up)
TOP ROW (left to right)
L1 --> Black --> To garage light
L2 --> UNUSED
CN -->Brown --> To outside light
BOTTOM ROW (left to right)
CN --> Red --> To garage light
L1 --> Black --> From single switch
L2 --> Red --> From single switch
Double switch arrangement
LHS --> Garage light
RHS --> Outside light
H
holmslaw
..
Hi Ping,
Ok thanks for that, at least one light is working albeit not wired as it should be. Is there any possibility you can post a pic of the garage light and the wiring so we can see how many cables are in there?
Cheers
Dan
Ok thanks for that, at least one light is working albeit not wired as it should be. Is there any possibility you can post a pic of the garage light and the wiring so we can see how many cables are in there?
Cheers
Dan
holmslaw
I bought a multimeter and tested the connection rather than relying on the fact that the bulb did not light. I would have tried differing bulbs, but its a screw thread and I had none around.
In my meagre defence I did mention that I needed to test the circuit properly using a meter (see post with CU pictures on it), but please accept my apologies for the false information.
** learned my lesson :: never trust a bulb **
I bought a multimeter and tested the connection rather than relying on the fact that the bulb did not light. I would have tried differing bulbs, but its a screw thread and I had none around.
In my meagre defence I did mention that I needed to test the circuit properly using a meter (see post with CU pictures on it), but please accept my apologies for the false information.
** learned my lesson :: never trust a bulb **
Had a look at the garage light circuit. To be honest i cannot see much, the cable is cut very short inside the ceiling. The ceiling is entirely plasterboarded so i am unable to see the wiring directly.
It seems to be a 5 core cable - I could be mistaken here, it looks like 2 seperate red wires *but* it could be a single wire wrapped around itself.
2 black / 2 red and earth
2 black wires go into the lamp unit, this suprised me. I was expecting a live feed to be fed up to the light from the red/live in the dbl switch.
Would this indicate that the light circuit i marked up as "to garage light" actually goes to another lighting circuit / switch first before making its way onwards ??
This would not explain though, how my volt meter showed no voltage across the terminals L1 (black) and Common (red) on the garage switch.
If necessary i will lift the upstairs floor up though and take a peek
Shall I open the CU and take a look - most of the wires from the CU go into trunking and i *assumed* that the lighting ring would be inside there. I took a uneducated guess that the drilled hole in the top right of the CU (see pic i posted) was an extension to the lighting circuit...could it be the actual start of the circuit???
I am unable to post pictures as my card reader is kaput at the moment. Not that it would help much anyways, the wire is so far in the ceiling that all my attempts at lighting it resulted in severe over exposure. (guess i will x-post to a photography forum next)
Ps - Thanks for everyones help so far ... really appreciated.
It seems to be a 5 core cable - I could be mistaken here, it looks like 2 seperate red wires *but* it could be a single wire wrapped around itself.
2 black / 2 red and earth
2 black wires go into the lamp unit, this suprised me. I was expecting a live feed to be fed up to the light from the red/live in the dbl switch.
Would this indicate that the light circuit i marked up as "to garage light" actually goes to another lighting circuit / switch first before making its way onwards ??
This would not explain though, how my volt meter showed no voltage across the terminals L1 (black) and Common (red) on the garage switch.
If necessary i will lift the upstairs floor up though and take a peek
Shall I open the CU and take a look - most of the wires from the CU go into trunking and i *assumed* that the lighting ring would be inside there. I took a uneducated guess that the drilled hole in the top right of the CU (see pic i posted) was an extension to the lighting circuit...could it be the actual start of the circuit???
I am unable to post pictures as my card reader is kaput at the moment. Not that it would help much anyways, the wire is so far in the ceiling that all my attempts at lighting it resulted in severe over exposure. (guess i will x-post to a photography forum next)
Ps - Thanks for everyones help so far ... really appreciated.
Right now we have a better idea of whats going on here ping. Your light is wired just as i said it was, its feed comes into the light fitting itself, the two reds are live feed in and live feed out to the switch, one of the blacks is switched live from the switch and the other is neutral from the mains.
Take away your outside light completely and imagine a single switch where the double one is now, this is how the garage light was originally before the outside light was installed.
Now even though the outside light circuit has been worked on it has nothing to do with the garage light so its not the reasin why it doesnt work. There is a fault elsewhere with the garage light supply, which comes into the light at the ceiling, you will need to disconnect the garage light and measure for voltage across each cable, if you have voltage them re-wire the light and try it again.
Or as a quick test join the red and black at the double switch for the garage light together, turn the power back on and see if it comes on, if it does then the switch is duff and needs replacing, if not try changing the lamp for a known good one. Failing that we are back to a supply problem so you will need to test both cables at the light.
I hope ive explained all that ok, if not let me know and i'll clarify anything you need to know. Let me know how you get on.
All the best
Dan
Take away your outside light completely and imagine a single switch where the double one is now, this is how the garage light was originally before the outside light was installed.
Now even though the outside light circuit has been worked on it has nothing to do with the garage light so its not the reasin why it doesnt work. There is a fault elsewhere with the garage light supply, which comes into the light at the ceiling, you will need to disconnect the garage light and measure for voltage across each cable, if you have voltage them re-wire the light and try it again.
Or as a quick test join the red and black at the double switch for the garage light together, turn the power back on and see if it comes on, if it does then the switch is duff and needs replacing, if not try changing the lamp for a known good one. Failing that we are back to a supply problem so you will need to test both cables at the light.
I hope ive explained all that ok, if not let me know and i'll clarify anything you need to know. Let me know how you get on.
All the best
Dan
Forgot to answer some of your questions so....
The red wires are indeed two separate ones joined together, this is the live feed in to the light and then the one down to the switch. Two black cables to the lamp perfectly normal, though one should be sleeved red to identify it as switched live.
The "garage light" circuit could feed other lights in the house, only way to know for sure is to switch it off and see if any other lights stop working.
Depending on the light your meter would not show voltage across the switch as the red is "live in" and the black is "switched live" back out to the light, you need to measure between live and neutral to get a voltage reading.
Dont lift any floor boards yet as you may not need to and you dont really need to take the cover off the CU, the cable to the right will almost certainly be an extension to the circuit and not the start of it. If you want to have a look to satisfy your own curiosity then thats up to you but please make sure you switch the power off first and dont go prodding around inside it as the tails to the main switch will still be live!
All the best
Dan
The red wires are indeed two separate ones joined together, this is the live feed in to the light and then the one down to the switch. Two black cables to the lamp perfectly normal, though one should be sleeved red to identify it as switched live.
The "garage light" circuit could feed other lights in the house, only way to know for sure is to switch it off and see if any other lights stop working.
Depending on the light your meter would not show voltage across the switch as the red is "live in" and the black is "switched live" back out to the light, you need to measure between live and neutral to get a voltage reading.
Dont lift any floor boards yet as you may not need to and you dont really need to take the cover off the CU, the cable to the right will almost certainly be an extension to the circuit and not the start of it. If you want to have a look to satisfy your own curiosity then thats up to you but please make sure you switch the power off first and dont go prodding around inside it as the tails to the main switch will still be live!
All the best
Dan
Just to reiterate/confirm ....
You are telling me to imagine a single switch that would have just fed and switched on/off the garage light. For example, if i replaced the double switch with a single switch and just wired up the black/red to the L1 and CN i would have the same problem.
The red and black into the single switch comes from the lighting ring and are live / switched live out .... back to the light.. WHICH explains why on my multimeter i get no V as there is no continuity (its the same wire...in effect)
** Daft question coming *** Do double switches individually switch, or is there some x-over cicruity.. ie are they just two seperate switches that happen to be housed in one faceplate or do they actually work together. I assume the former as it would be a simple job to "link" them manually.
Ahhh the plot thickens..
1) In the porch there has also been spotlights fitted, AFAIK these spotlights where just extended from the original light fitting..eg from the input light feed a connected was used to fit 2 lights in parallel ( a terminating block feeds the 2 lights in a Y pattern ). I am therefore assuming that these lights could not have contributed to the problem
2) In my porch there is a porch light switch - which has also been replaced along while ago, (read that as messed with)... Now i am guessing this is could be the culprit. AFAIK there were multiple lives in this one.
Thanks again... to everyone..
Steve
........
You are telling me to imagine a single switch that would have just fed and switched on/off the garage light. For example, if i replaced the double switch with a single switch and just wired up the black/red to the L1 and CN i would have the same problem.
The red and black into the single switch comes from the lighting ring and are live / switched live out .... back to the light.. WHICH explains why on my multimeter i get no V as there is no continuity (its the same wire...in effect)
** Daft question coming *** Do double switches individually switch, or is there some x-over cicruity.. ie are they just two seperate switches that happen to be housed in one faceplate or do they actually work together. I assume the former as it would be a simple job to "link" them manually.
Ahhh the plot thickens..
1) In the porch there has also been spotlights fitted, AFAIK these spotlights where just extended from the original light fitting..eg from the input light feed a connected was used to fit 2 lights in parallel ( a terminating block feeds the 2 lights in a Y pattern ). I am therefore assuming that these lights could not have contributed to the problem
2) In my porch there is a porch light switch - which has also been replaced along while ago, (read that as messed with)... Now i am guessing this is could be the culprit. AFAIK there were multiple lives in this one.
Thanks again... to everyone..
Steve
........
Have learnt some valuable fault finding lessons here..
Mainly dont assume anything and use a multimeter (if only i understood 1/2 of the functions on it)
Thanks to everyone.. you have all been a really helpful - special mention to you Dan.. Your ability to cut through my "chaff" and logically diagnose my fault has been an eye opener
Thanks again...most appreciated
Mainly dont assume anything and use a multimeter (if only i understood 1/2 of the functions on it)
Thanks to everyone.. you have all been a really helpful - special mention to you Dan.. Your ability to cut through my "chaff" and logically diagnose my fault has been an eye opener
Thanks again...most appreciated
Hi Steve,
No problem at all mate, feel free to post back here ifyou need any further help. In answer to your latest post.....
Yes the garage light would have been a single originally, if you changed it for one now it might work if the double switch is faulty, basically its now down to a process of elimination for each part in the circuit until you find the faulty one.
Yep bang on about the multimeter voltage.
Lol not a daft question at all, double (or any number) switches are indeed just two separate switches on one faceplate, they are not linked in any way.
The porch lights sound like they are wired up just fine, you could check the switch wiring if you suspect it may be part of the problem.
All the best
Dan
No problem at all mate, feel free to post back here ifyou need any further help. In answer to your latest post.....
Yes the garage light would have been a single originally, if you changed it for one now it might work if the double switch is faulty, basically its now down to a process of elimination for each part in the circuit until you find the faulty one.
Yep bang on about the multimeter voltage.
Lol not a daft question at all, double (or any number) switches are indeed just two separate switches on one faceplate, they are not linked in any way.
The porch lights sound like they are wired up just fine, you could check the switch wiring if you suspect it may be part of the problem.
All the best
Dan
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