Smart meters?

[ericmark]

I have found a few times where energy has been used, which the user was unaware of a fault causing the extra power to be used. I have had a freezer dropping temperature to -25°C instead of -18°C and I found out because of using an energy meter, I also trimmed the heater to make my beer to correct size so it did not over shoot using an energy meter.

However I can't see how a meter measuring the total a house used can ever produce information which can actually help, I would however be interested to see over a period of time how much is used with lights, how much is used with a cooker, and other items where you can't use a simple plug in unit.

Where items use a mark/space system to control the power used, be it an electric hob, and oven, or where you have many user options it is hard to compare devices or work out which is the best method, if I use a low heat to wash cloths then I also use special soaps, and longer cycle, I tried to compare what the machine used with each cycle, however I never got the same results for same cycle twice. It seems my washing machine measures the weight of the washing and adjusts the water used, so even with a single item it is hard to work out what it uses, so it must be impossible when the measuring device does the whole house.

At least with current transformers which measure current and time, you can select what circuits it measures, I have wondered if there is a way to monitor how much energy each room needs to keep warm? I have tried to control rooms independent of each other, however even with heating turned completely off in a room I find the temperature will rarely drop even 4°C lower than rest of the house, although we have insulation to stop heat going outside, there is very little stopping heat going from room to room.

So theory may say using eTRV's in every room so living rooms not heated at night, and bedrooms not heated in the day, you should save energy, in real terms the rooms don't seem to cool that much.

 

[JohnD]

However I can't see how a meter measuring the total a house used can ever produce information which can actually help,

As well as a real-time and cumulative display, mine put the data onto the PC where I can see graphs by year/month/day/hour/minute, if I want to. Having got familiar with the usage pattern, I don't often feel the need.

Being familiar with the "resting" usage at different times of year, I can easily see if the garage or loft light has been left on, or the frost protection heater in the garage has come on. I can also track the drop when I replaced old appliances with more efficient new ones. If the immersion heater was turned on for some reason, or if a freezer or other appliance developed a fault as you describe, it would be easy to see a change.

The length of time the washing machine heater is "on" is easy to see. With a resting total load of a few hundred W, it goes up by about 2kW. It takes between 10 and 15 minutes. The dishwasher heater takes 2.4 kW for eleven.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

in real terms the rooms don't seem to cool that much.

They do if you open windows for a bit of fresh air.

Oh dear - there goes the whole fiction of airtight buildings down the pan.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Being familiar with the "resting" usage at different times of year, I can easily see if the garage or loft light has been left on,

Wonderful, because as everyone knows, the old ways of paying attention and checking and THINKING are just nonsense, aren't they.

or the frost protection heater in the garage has come on.

I don't know why you don't just disconnect that. Total waste of energy.

I can also track the drop when I replaced old appliances with more efficient new ones.

Great idea, because then you can return the new ones to the shop and keep the old ones if the new ones don't save enough.

The length of time the washing machine heater is "on" is easy to see. With a resting total load of a few hundred W, it goes up by about 2kW. It takes between 10 and 15 minutes. The dishwasher heater takes 2.4 kW for eleven.

Thank god you've found that out. Now you know you have to stop using the washing machine and the dishwasher.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Smart meters were never designed to save energy, only to supposedly show you how much eneregy that you were using, and as Matz has demonstrated, make you think about that useage.

Can you make people think if they aren't already prepared to do that?

There are some here who regard suggesting that people should think as ranting.

I was always under the impression that they were being pushed by the energy companies to save on meter readers, give them more control over bad payers, be able to up your prices as and when they wanted, and to surrepitisiously charge more for an item thats supposed to be for your good, but is actualy for theirs.

You old cynic, you.

But I could be wrong of course.

I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[Doggit]

Can you make people think if they aren't already prepared to do that?

Not very often unfortunately

There are some here who regard suggesting that people should think as ranting.

But I wouldn't be one of them BAS, although I did wonder what response I'd get from you as I wrote the work "think"

You old cynic, you.

I've seen too much of this world, and how the people that inhabit it respond, not to be I'm afraid.

 

[winston1]

That report claims: "Smart meters are essentially a 'second check' as energy suppliers keep a record of energy consumption and if there is a discrepancy, they will know."

How do the energy companies do this? I don't think they leave a second non smart meter on everyones supply!

 

[cjard]

BAS, you're quite an intelligent, perceptive being. Why do you have such trouble with the relatively simple concept that others are not thus? Surely it's not a difficult nettle to grasp, that the majority of people have an IQ lower than yours, or an inability to reason the entire chain of cause and effect?

By demonstrating your lack of ability to understand a "regular people are really quite thick" concept you don't exactly set yourself apart from those who lack the ability to understand a "using energy costs money" concept

 

[matz]

I'm struggling to work out why there are some people that think others dont think energy costs money

A discussion of the accuracy of these gizmos would be helpful! I have always qualified my support of smart meters be saying assuming they are accurate. We had a water meter installed 3 yrs ago and the water bill doubled overnight. I cannot work out for the life of me where we are using so much water. I've gone through potential usage figures for various applications and can't find where its going. Having had one child leave home in the last 12 mths I think its time to take another look, though I did notice that toilet flushing x times a day really mounted up.....

 

[ross94]

on the basis that our new smart meter is accurate, it does save us money because it makes me more aware of what costs what and I have without a doubt altered our energy consumption. As an example - running the smart meter digital thing for both gas and electric each day gives me more or less instant read out of what we are using and the first thing that became obvious is how much the gas CH boiler is using so i started turning the stat down more often and further (much to my wifes disgust lol) Electric usage doesnt seem to alter much unless we used our big tumble drier. Gas seems the biggie here. I would say the smart meter is definitely enabling us to save money on energy bills but then we were are not frugal people so plenty of scope for us to save as opposed to those that run their house on a shoestring. As for hacking and spying I'm not losing any sleep over that and if its not accurate that will come to light in due course. Its obvious why the energy companies want to put them in, it enables them to remotely monitor usage. I'm not sure why there seems to a backlash against these things.....

Hi matz, how long ago did you have this smart meter installed?

 

[ericmark]

As well as a real-time and cumulative display, mine put the data onto the PC where I can see graphs by year/month/day/hour/minute, if I want to. Having got familiar with the usage pattern, I don't often feel the need.

I found the same with the plug in energy meter, I stuck it on all sorts to start with, but then it got shoved in a cupboard.

Being familiar with the "resting" usage at different times of year, I can easily see if the garage or loft light has been left on, or the frost protection heater in the garage has come on. I can also track the drop when I replaced old appliances with more efficient new ones. If the immersion heater was turned on for some reason, or if a freezer or other appliance developed a fault as you describe, it would be easy to see a change.

You must have very little running to see that, I had a display given free by Scottish power, it was logarithmic so when not using much power you could see the fridge or freezer cut in, in real time you also heard them, so you knew what it was, however I have three freezers - fridge/freezers one only used to brew beer, and although I could see something had started and stopped, I could not say which had started and stopped. I am using an old one where the thermal insulation failed for beer brewing, after replacing mainly due to worrying it would fail full of food, I worked out over the expected life span if changing it actually saved money, answer was no, at £750 for fridge/freezer over the guarantee time of 10 years, it would have been cheaper to buy the extra power, however it did give me a brewing fridge so not complaining too much.

The length of time the washing machine heater is "on" is easy to see. With a resting total load of a few hundred W, it goes up by about 2kW. It takes between 10 and 15 minutes. The dishwasher heater takes 2.4 kW for eleven.

Now I also found that a LG washing machine with inverter drive used the heater for such a short time it would run on a 6 amp B type MCB, on the 40°C cycle, however it would trip the 4 amp MCB, it was in a narrow boat and that was size of shore power supply, we actually fitted an inverter to take the short load when the heater cut in, but not needed. And yes without some time recording you have no idea how much power is used, you know ratting of element but not how long it runs for. We now have a different inverter drive washing machine, it has water jets which is claimed is better, and the wash time for how clean the cloths are does seem shorter. But to measure with a general meter which measures all used in the house would be a real pain, what I do is plug in the energy meter and come back after and read how much power used with a wash. Idea was to compare mothers washing machine and my own and also the tumble driers so work out which washer was cheapest to use, there was some point in this we could swap them over. However in the main you have what you have bought so no point.

However it was never the same power used twice, the washing machine measures the amount of water depending on weight, and also drying time varies, so all this info was a waste of time. And that's when just doing one item at a time and plugging it in, also using a PC or phone to monitor is not ideal, the old stand alone monitor issued FOC by Scottish Power does a better job, no need to have PC running. I found this with MiHome sockets which controlled the alarms for mother, I could switch on/off and alter auto times with the phone or PC, however the time to bring up the app or switch on PC was quite long compared with a simple remote control, so now we use simple remote controls.

Same would apply for garage lights left on, to boot PC to monitor if lights left on would take longer than walking to garage to see, with the simple remote monitor from Scottish Power maybe I would look at that, but to use a phone or PC app just not worth the effort.

So I can already monitor usage and compare with time, so why on earth would I want a "Smart" meter? Just a total waste of money and time.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm struggling to work out why there are some people that think others dont think energy costs money

That often seems to be the justification for having these gizmos. I mean - why would anybody who knows that energy costs money not realise that the more they use the more money it costs?

I cannot work out for the life of me where we are using so much water.

Doesn't matter. All you have to do is to use less, whenever you go to use it, and your bill will get smaller.

I did notice that toilet flushing x times a day really mounted up.....

Well FHS - just stop flushing it so often.

 

[SimonH2]

Well FHS - just stop flushing it so often.

Ah, there's that old saying ... If it's yellow, let it mellow; if it's brown, flush it down.
And most modern flushing systems are dual-flush - allowing a short flush using a lot less water, or a full flush using the whole cistern. It's worth learning how to use them.

 

[matz]

Hi matz, how long ago did you have this smart meter installed?

Ross, late last year so not long. I know I started running round switching lights off when it was first connected up then realised that switching lights off hardly made any difference and that it was the CH boiler and tumble drier that mounted up fast. I know every little thing adds up but I'm not on a mission to get my energy costs to the bare minimum irrelevant of personal comfort. As an example of how my usage has changed as a result of having a smart meter, I now shut the CH wall stat off completely when going to bed whereas before I left it at 12 to 14deg overnight so the house didnt go completely cold (personal comfort) Once I knew how much the CH was costing (which only a smart meter could tell me in any accurate way) I could see I could be saving some cash.

 

[matz]

Ah, there's that old saying ... If it's yellow, let it mellow; if it's brown, flush it down.
And most modern flushing systems are dual-flush - allowing a short flush using a lot less water, or a full flush using the whole cistern. It's worth learning how to use them.

yes we've tried this lol, not very pleasant especially if you have visitors! Also tried putting bricks in the cistern but not very effective if your loo doesnt flush as well as it should when using it for other things but your comment has made me THINK and that is to use the upstairs loo which has dual flush - all the other loos are older ones. Google bendroflumethiazide for an explanation of why so many flushes yeh sorry , the medical card again. So as for smart meters, what has a water meter told me? its focussed my mind on whats using the water - thats a good thing!