Smart Meters 'forced' on people?

the politicians, in whatever countries, believe that 'smart' meters will achieve something
From what I have read France for one charges for electricity in a different way to the UK. At least for domestic. One pays for the ability to use a set amount of power, exceeding the agreed amount can cause auto disconnection.

Not sure how other European countries do it? In this country when we ask for a new supply we are asked how much we want, but in real terms British domestic is 60, 80 or 100 amp. Where in France it can be down to 30 amp. I have a 60 amp fuse, which has never blown while I have lived here, and before me the main isolator was only 60 amp so could not offer any more.

I don't trust any advert which clearly claims some thing you know they can't do, like clapping hands to turn on lights, if there was any real benefit to the user I am sure they would tell us, but they continue to use daft adverts, so clearly not advantage to the user.
 
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I strongly suspect that the "helping people to reduce consumption" is just an excuse ...
You could be right, but I really think you are probably giving the government far more credit for understanding and thought than they probably deserve!

I still think it far more likely that they have (naively) completely bought the idea that the meters will result in substantial reductions in demand, and that that is therefore their belief about the primary importance/'benefit' of having these devices deployed. I may, of course, be totally wrong.

Kind Regards, John
 
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The biggest increase in my energy use was caused by Colvid, we now have more freezers running, as we needed to be able to survive longer between food deliveries.

My aim is to decommission freezers, but every time there is a food shortage, my wife sees this as an excuse to store more. We are very aware that snow and ice can mean we can't leave the house, she now wants me to cut up a pile of wood ready to burn should we get power cuts.

I have no problem with a electric meter with telemetry, I do however have a problem with auto disconnection, and a meter which is hard to read, a meter using some thing like IFTTT so it can tell other devices when power is cheap so I can use it during cheap times seems good.

However I have seen this before, I can see the power I am using on the PC,
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but I have no way to use this information without human intervention. I can't set it up so when it stops using power some other device switches on automatic, I need to read the display and use another program to switch some thing else on, I have good telemetry but nothing is really Smart.

I see we can get EV charging points with monitor rest of house usage and adjust the EV charging to ensure no overload, and we can get devices which can use excess electric power to heat our water, but when my father-in-law had a smart meter installed we thought we as his children could monitor his power usage to see when he was using the kettle, etc. This would show us he was OK without intruding too much, my mother we had pet cam set up, but the smart meter readings would have been enough, but no one seemed to know how to do this, which seemed rather dumb.

Until the information from a smart meter can be used by the home owner to automatic do things, like turn on a washing machine when the rate is cheap, without human intervention, they are dumb meter.
 
They can force a meter change and if you refuse to accept their replacement they can and I suspect will still go through the hoops of legalese to do so. I haven't read T&Cs recently but I imagine it will contain something like 'equipment of our choice'. The alternative to total refusal is of course no meter and therefore no service.
I wonder if anyone had tied them up in GDPR yet ?
As to rights of access, gas suppliers have equal rights (due to gas safety) to custom and excise which is greater than police.
But only for safety reasons. They do not have those rights just to replace a meter that isn't dangerous.
But why do that? If you need to save money, you have to turn things off, dial it down etc. You don't need a smart meter to do that. My thermostats are pretty smart!
True, but it helps considerably if you know what is using power and how much. Most people are pretty clueless as to where there consumption of power has gone ...
This :rolleyes: I have "discussions" with SWMBO who makes a point of switching off the bathroom fan if I leave it running and she's next in the shower - it's manually controlled and somewhat down my long "round to it" jobs list to change that. She's concerned about the amount of lecky it uses, ditto the light (28W 2D flouro). But she's happy to use several (full) bowls of hot water when washing up - one to soak things which then goes cold so has to be replaced, then refreshing it several times. Any attempts to educate on what does and doesn't use significant amounts of energy go in one ear and out the other.
My two are co-located, alongside my drive, both at the same height - a perfect back breaking height when you stoop down to read them.
At my parents previous house, the gas meter was almost on the floor - so exceedingly difficult to read. My dad made a periscope type of gadget to make it easy to read without contortions. He also mounted a magnifying glass and a small torch on a stick for reading the water meter down its hole in the pavement.
Smart meters are a Government directive which the suppliers have to follow and meet set targets.
Indeed. But at the moment, the target is only to offer a smart meter - "Can we install a smart meter ?", "No, I don't want one", goes towards their targets ... for the moment.
 
But only for safety reasons. They do not have those rights just to replace a meter that isn't dangerous.
We're talking about 'contracted agreements', not generic/legal 'rights'.

As I keep saying, if I could but find it, I'm pretty sure that in my contract with my electricity supplier (which I am deemed to have accepted if I use their electricity, even though I have never actually signed it) I have agreed that they can install whatever equipment in my house that they see fit to install in relation to their provision of an electricity supply - or something very similar to that.

Kind Regards, John
 
The aim being that if individual households could see how much they were using they would reduce their consumption. Whether it works in practice is a different matter.
The industry has a term "TTD" (time to drawer) for the IHD - last I heard it was typically measured in weeks. I suspect that tells you everything you need to know about theory vs practice.
Merely having a smart meter does not guarantee that outcome so some punitive measures, which could not be employed without smart meters, must be being considered therefore this must be the real reason behind their installation.
It has been no secret in the industry for many years that the primary reason for smart meters to to "manage" demand. Specifically, to be able to hike the price for several periods and so encourage people to reduce consumption. Back in the days when lecky was something like 10-12p/unit, the talk was of hiking the price to (say) 50p/unit for a couple of hours to manage a peak in demand/lull in supply.
And if that fails, then the disconnect (mandatory element of SMETS spec so present in all smart meters) can allow rolling power cuts just like we had in the 70s but more fine grained.
That is THE primary function of smart meters and always has been. Everything else has always been secondary to that.
I strongly suspect that the "helping people to reduce consumption" is just an excuse, I see a few benefits (for the government/industry) to a well executed smart meter programme.

1. Avoiding the need to pay meter readers.
2. Enabling the time profile of customer's usage to be measured. This is a pre-requisite to introducing schemes that encourage customers to shift their demand to better match up with supply.
3. Giving more flexibility in rationing electricity in case demand exceeds supply. Right now the only real option is indiscriminate rolling blackouts. Smart meters with disconnect capability give more options.
3 is the main reason. We have long since given up on trying to supply what people want to use, and moved into "persuading" people to use what's available - and intermittent renewables (mostly wind) drives a lot of that.
But other intended benefits disappeared. I recall going to a talk a couple of years ago (just before covid) on smart meters - the guy giving the talk was "not very positive" about them. When I got to questions, I mentioned that I'd been to a talk he'd given some years earlier where he was waxing lyrical about the potential - but he seemed to have changed his position. He agreed with that summary :rolleyes:
Trying to remember the other benefits that had been used to justify the cost. I do recall one of them was allowing the DNO to remotely monitor end user supply voltages, and detect outages, and thus improve network management and fault responses. But it turns out that the SMETS2 spec for voltage measurement is not accurate enough for the DNOs needs so that benefit got struck off the list.
IIRC, he went through a list of benefits that would not/could not be realised but had been used in the cost-benefit analysis - and came to the conclusion that smart metering would cost more than the benefits.
Another way they could use SM's is to bribe customers to restrict their consumption during those peak times, rather than penalising them for higher consumption. The suppliers have access to the 30 minute consumption data, they could make customers a refund of £x for every peak where they limited their consumption below a set level.
That's just getting going. Octopus are one of those running a system in partnership with the people running the grid.
From what I have read France for one charges for electricity in a different way to the UK.
And other countries. I can't find it now, but in the past one of TheRegister's writers lived in rural <somewhere> and did a whole article on the "joys" of living with something like a 5A supply. Pretty basic - as part of the service head there's an MCB, if you want a higher capacity then you pay more IF the supplier is prepared to allow it (in this case, they could not have a bigger supply without paying an eye watering amount to significant network upgrades).
In a previous job, we had an office in Italy. In hot weather (i.e. aircon running) they'd occasionally go offline (we'd see them disappear off the network) when they tripped their supply and had to "reboot" the whole office.

This brings to mind conversations I've had with UPS manufacturers (specifically, but not exclusively APC). It seems that UPS (uninteruptible power supply) manufacturers are happy to simply declare your supply inadequate rather than provide a means of staying within it. Specifically, a UPS will recharge it's batteries when the power comes back on - so now you are both running your full loads and recharging the batteries. In the real world with restricted supplies, this then raises the prospect of the UPS keeping you going through a power cut - then blowing/tripping your supply when the power comes back on. Manufacturer's answer was not to offer an option to restrict either charge rate or total draw - but you "simply" upgrade your power supply to suit their equipment.
We're talking about 'contracted agreements', not generic/legal 'rights'.
That's different. I was responding to Sunray when he wrote "As to rights of access, gas suppliers have equal rights (due to gas safety) to custom and excise which is greater than police." They do have such rights if there's (say) a gas leak - but otherwise they most certainly do not have such rights.
If, for example, they insist on replacing your meter, they cannot simply turn up, force entry, and change it - they would have to go through a process of telling you they want to do it and arranging a mutually acceptable time to do it. Only if you would not/could not come to such an arrangement would they then be able to apply for a warrant of entry. And of course, that's an area where smart meters are "dangerous" - in theory they still have to go through the same process for a remote (click a button on a computer screen) disconnection, and of course we all trust them never to cut corners or make "administrative errors" don't we :ROFLMAO:
 
That's different. I was responding to Sunray when he wrote "As to rights of access, gas suppliers have equal rights (due to gas safety) to custom and excise which is greater than police." They do have such rights if there's (say) a gas leak - but otherwise they most certainly do not have such rights.
I agree - but, as I said (in the context of this thread), the absence of a legal 'right' to enter properties does nothing to help people who don't want a 'smart' meter if they have contractually agreed (even if only implicitly) that the electricity supplier may install any equipment they see fir in the consumers property in relation to providing an electricity supply.

Kind Regards, John
 
Lots in the news today over smart meter customers who have been switched to pre-payment. Apparently the lekky companies can do this remotely if you fall behind with payments.

And they said that having a smart meter was for the customer’s benefit.
Another reason that I will be the last in the country to have one!
 
Lots in the news today over smart meter customers who have been switched to pre-payment. Apparently the lekky companies can do this remotely if you fall behind with payments.

And they said that having a smart meter was for the customer’s benefit.
Another reason that I will be the last in the country to have one!
The item said they can be switched to pre-pay if they are in debt. Why shouldn’t the company be able to do that? I don’t know what business you are in but if a customer owed you money, would you keep on supplying them with more and more of your services or goods for free or would you request that they paid up front whilst at the same time paying off a little of what they owed you?

"EDF told the BBC a switch to a prepayment meter was "a last resort" after extensive attempts to discuss support and agree a resolution with the customer.
A spokesperson added: "In this situation, moving a customer to pay-as-you-go will prevent them from continuing to accrue debt at an uncontrollable rate and prompt the customer to take control of their ongoing energy payments."
 
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Lots in the news today over smart meter customers who have been switched to pre-payment. Apparently the lekky companies can do this remotely if you fall behind with payments.

How does that actually work?

Never had a pre-payment or smart-meter (Probably never will now), but I thought with a pre-payment meter you had a 'key' type thing that you took to the corner shop for a top-up, then plugged it in to the meter.

Do smart meters have a 'keyhole' for that?
Or what?
 
How does that actually work?

Never had a pre-payment or smart-meter (Probably never will now), but I thought with a pre-payment meter you had a 'key' type thing that you took to the corner shop for a top-up, then plugged it in to the meter.

Do smart meters have a 'keyhole' for that?
Or what?
All done online I believe. You pay some money into an account and they remotely credit it onto your meter.
 
Never had a pre-payment or smart-meter (Probably never will now), but I thought with a pre-payment meter you had a 'key' type thing that you took to the corner shop for a top-up, then plugged it in to the meter.

I think that was the older system, I think the smart ones do things all online, or via a phone app.
 
We've seen pics of smart meters in this forum with 'keyslots', they may very well be older generations.
 

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