Solar Panel simple question

Joined
14 Apr 2007
Messages
498
Reaction score
33
Country
United Kingdom
I really should know this so please excuse my naive questions, but basic domestic solar panel systems, during daylight hours what makes the load use the solar generated power, rather than the DNO network, im guessing the system raises the solar voltage slightly higher than the incoming service.......

Have any of you experienced chaps had any dealings with Solar panel installations and seen any downside of the system
 
Sponsored Links
They push the voltage up a tad above the measured grid voltage. Anything in excess of (typically) 258v and the inverter locks out.

If your neighbours all have solar too, and the impedance between you and them is small, you can run into voltage issues......pushing each others up.

I never got involved in solar during the "boom", but am picking up work now rectifying dogy installs and burnt out items where companies have now gone squit.
 
They push the voltage up a tad above the measured grid voltage.
IMO that's a misleading way of putting it. What actually happens is that the solar PV system does absolutely nothing to make the house loads use it's output rather than the mains.

Basically, sun shines, panels produce power. The inverter converts that to AC at the right phase etc and pushes current* into the mains. If the mains were zero impedance (resistance) then there would be no change in voltage, but because there is impedance there will be a slight voltage rise through the network due to the change in current - in the house it may be a reversal of current, further upstream it will be a reduction in current drawn by all the loads supplied through that point.

So the sun is shining and your panels are pumping power back into the mains. You switch on a load and it draws current - it doesn't care where that current comes from, only that there is a supply of it. All that happens is that the load current gets subtracted from the current being exported. There is no difference in the electrons involved - they all get mixed up together :D
Think of it like a load of water pipes. One end connects to the mains, you have a pump pushing water into another, and in the absence of any open taps, whatever water current you push in with the pump will go out into the mains. The pressure (aka voltage) will be determined by the mains pressure plus pressure drop due to water flow in the pipes. If you open a tap, then some water will come out of it - if you are pushing more in with the pump than you are letting out of the tap, then all the water coming out of the tap will come from the pump simply because there will still be some backflow into the mains. If the pump slows down, then at some point it won't be supplying as much as is coming out of the tap and so the mains will start to supply the difference. But the pump neither knows nor cares where the water is going.


* You can argue as to whether it's pushing current, or actively attempting to alter the voltage until the required current flows.
 
Sponsored Links
So many lines there, but at the end of it all, current needs voltage to flow.

If the solar is producing plenty of energy, but its potential is low compared to the grid, it will not be used, it will sit there, wasted.
 
If the solar is producing plenty of energy, but its potential is low compared to the grid, it will not be used, it will sit there, wasted.
Electrical energy cannot really 'sit there', since the word relates to the utilisation of power - I think you probably mean voltage - or, very confusingly [using the everday' (rather than 'energy') sense of the word!], 'potential' energy!!

I've never paid much attention to this solar stuff, but I had always assumed that the inverters were fairly clever and, provided there was some input from the solar panel, would produce a voltage output which was fractionally above the grid voltage. Is that wrong?

Kind Regards, John
 
It's a tricky one to get your head around.
If the "load" as seen by the inverter were elastic then yes, all it needs to do is produce a voltage and current will flow. But with an inelastic load (as the mains can be considered to be), controlling power flow by controlling voltage isn't a good mechanism.

If you have a variable bench power supply (which must include current limiting), try controlling current through some bare LEDs (without current limiting resistor). You'll find that nothing happens as you increase the voltage until you reach the knee voltage, then the current shoots up with only a small increase in voltage (that's why you need current limiting or you'll just pop the LEDs.

Similarly, if you are trying to drive a set amount of power into the mains, if you just work on trying to generate a higher voltage then you'll find current control (and hence power control) very difficult. If you control the current and accept whatever voltage the inelastic mains provides then you'll find it easy.

Back to the plumbing analogy. You have a pump with a variable outlet pressure (controlled by pressure relief valve). Connect that to the mains* and you'll find there's a fairly sharp transition between all the pump flow going through the relief valve, and it all going through the mains. If you try and control the flow rate (eg to match what's going into your tank from another source) then you'll find it difficult. Furthermore, you'll have to sit there constantly altering the pressure to match as the mains varies.
If instead you use a variable flow rate pump (eg a positive displacement pump with variable speed drive), you'll find it easy to control the flow rate. The pressure will be whatever it is - that's pretty well fixed by the mains - give or take a bit to allow for local flow-related pressure drops in pipes.

* Bearing in mind that this is neither desirable nor legal - it's just for explanation purposes.


Casting my mind back <cough> decades, I vaguely recall doing lab work at uni on AC machines. Take one synchronous machine, driven by a DC motor for ease of power control (this was before cheap inverters), and sync it to the mains.
Turn up the field a bit, and without any input power to the motor, not a lot happens. Add input power (ie torque to the generator) and power flows out; treat the DC motor as a generator and pull power from it, power flows in - changing between motoring and generating occurs without altering the field current (and hence O/C volts).

With a weak field, there's less "magnetic strength" and if you apply a lot of input torque you'll break the AC machine out of sync - and the pens on the X-Y plotter go nuts :D Adding field current increases the "strength" and so you can apply more torque and generate more output current before this happens.

We also had an engines lab in the basement - using an AC alternator as a load. With a fixed field current, the output power was controlled by the input torque, and hence by the engine power produced.
They also used one of the rigs as a backup generator during power cuts (I assume by just opening the main switch with no interlocks !) - with power controlled by the diesel governor altering power to keep speed constant.


But at the end of it, all you need to know is that the clever electronics inside the inverter take care of all this - it may be using voltage control at a low level, but it will have a fast feedback loop to control that based on power. It simply pushes the power out of it's mains terminals and it neither knows nor cares how much of that goes out through your meter and how much is used in the house.
The only time it cares about what's on the other side of those terminals is if it determines that it's not connected to a solid mains. Then it shuts down as required by regs to prevent "islanding" - where a fault occurs and instead of a section of the network going dead, it carries on powered by embedded generation at an arbitrary voltage and phase relative to the main grid. Cause that and you'll have Westie and his colleagues "quite annoyed".
 
But at the end of it, all you need to know is that the clever electronics inside the inverter take care of all this - it may be using voltage control at a low level, but it will have a fast feedback loop to control that based on power. It simply pushes the power out of it's mains terminals and it neither knows nor cares how much of that goes out through your meter and how much is used in the house.
Indeed, but I think the point being made by others earlier, which I think has to be undeniably true, is that the inverter would not be able to send 'power' into the grid unless its source voltage was at least fractionally greater than the grid voltage as seen at the point of connection. Electricity doesn't flow against a potential gradient,or even across a zero potential gradient.
The only time it cares about what's on the other side of those terminals is if it determines that it's not connected to a solid mains. Then it shuts down as required by regs to prevent "islanding" - where a fault occurs and instead of a section of the network going dead, it carries on powered by embedded generation at an arbitrary voltage and phase relative to the main grid.
Such functionality is obviously essential, for the reason you give, but I wonder how it is achieved. The problem is that of sensing the grid voltage at the same time that the inverter is connected to it, particularly when there is net flow from inverter into the grid. I can but presume that there must be a small impedance inserted in the path between inverter and grid to facilitate such sensing - in the event of a netwok supply failure, there would then presumably be a considerable voltage drop across the 'embedded impedence' as the inverter attempted to supply the whole of the section of the network concerned? However, I doubt it's as simple as that.

Kind Regards, John
 
Such functionality is obviously essential, for the reason you give, but I wonder how it is achieved. The problem is that of sensing the grid voltage at the same time that the inverter is connected to it, particularly when there is net flow from inverter into the grid. I can but presume that there must be a small impedance inserted in the path between inverter and grid to facilitate such sensing - in the event of a netwok supply failure, there would then presumably be a considerable voltage drop across the 'embedded impedence' as the inverter attempted to supply the whole of the section of the network concerned? However, I doubt it's as simple as that.

Kind Regards, John

These may be of interest:

http://3wayss.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/designing-grid-tie-inverter-circuit.html

http://www.xcdsystem.com/energyTech2012/pdfs/161.pdf
 
Thanks. I must be missing something, and therefore need to study these more carefully - because, at first sight, they do not seem to address the issue I mentioned. Given that, during normal operation, the inverter output appears to be connected directly to the grid, at first sight it would look as if the inverter function would be self-perpetuating once started - i.e. in the event of a grid supply failure, the inverter will continue sensing its own output and 'thinking' that it is seeing 'the grid voltage'. Since that clearly can't be the case, I'll continue looking/thinking to see if I can discover what I am missing!

Kind Rewgards, John
 
Thanks. I must be missing something, and therefore need to study these more carefully - because, at first sight, they do not seem to address the issue I mentioned. Given that, during normal operation, the inverter output appears to be connected directly to the grid, at first sight it would look as if the inverter function would be self-perpetuating once started - i.e. in the event of a grid supply failure, the inverter will continue sensing its own output and 'thinking' that it is seeing 'the grid voltage'. Since that clearly can't be the case, I'll continue looking/thinking to see if I can discover what I am missing!

Kind Rewgards, John

Try this one:

http://techluck.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1369113448
 
If the solar is producing plenty of energy, but its potential is low compared to the grid, it will not be used, it will sit there, wasted.
Electrical energy cannot really 'sit there', since the word relates to the utilisation of power - I think you probably mean voltage - or, very confusingly [using the everday' (rather than 'energy') sense of the word!], 'potential' energy!!

I've never paid much attention to this solar stuff, but I had always assumed that the inverters were fairly clever and, provided there was some input from the solar panel, would produce a voltage output which was fractionally above the grid voltage. Is that wrong?

Kind Regards, John

I actually assumed I had wrote potential energy.

The inverters do push the voltage up to export their energy, the (potential)energy would just sit there otherwise.

Not sure why Simon says it doesn't, and then says it does...

The manufacturers of inverters make it clear that they push the voltage up above the grid to achieve current flow. If your grid volts are too high, some inverters just never manage to export as they hit their upper limit. Been there on a job where at certain times the inverters just can't export, despite the sun shining like a gooden. Grid volts just too high, but within DNO limits.
 
Not sure why Simon says it doesn't, and then says it does...
I don't think you've understood what I wrote. Yes, it stands to reason that if the inverter output voltage is lower than teh mains voltage then it won't be able to export power - but the moment you connect it to the mains, it's output voltage will be the mains voltage even if that is higher than what the inverter would be producing offline.

What I did say is that in practical terms the inverter cannot influence the mains voltage - well only by a relatively tiny amount due to changes in volt drops in the circuits supplying the mains. In relative terms, the mains is a very very very low impedance.
COnsider an analogy. There is a huge block of <something> that needs moving - far heavier than a small number of people can lift. So whoever wants it moving gets a lot of people to lift it. Say it's got 1000 handles on it, and 999 people have got it off the ground - you come along and grab hold of the last handle and lift it. It would be wrong to say that you've lifted your handle higher than the block and so that's why there's now a force from your hands - in practical terms, your efforts aren't going to have a significant effect (a small effect, not a big one). What you would say is that you've applied force by trying to lift your hands higher, or you might just say you've grabbed hold and are applying a force.

If you are fairly strong in relation to the rest of the system - say you've got a powerful jack - then you could say "I'll lift that handle to x inches above the ground", stick the jack under the handle and crank. IF the handle was already higher than you'll apply no force, if it was lower then you might take a significant part of the weight of the block. But your average solar inverter isn't strong like that - it can "try" to raise it's output voltage - but in practice the voltage is determined fairly closely by the mains voltage.
So, are you saying "if I raise my handle to x inches I'll do my share of holding the weight", or do you say "if I apply enough force then I;ll do my share" ?

The manufacturers of inverters make it clear that they push the voltage up above the grid to achieve current flow. If your grid volts are too high, some inverters just never manage to export as they hit their upper limit. Been there on a job where at certain times the inverters just can't export, despite the sun shining like a gooden. Grid volts just too high, but within DNO limits.
Is that the marketing people, the technical people explaining a non-trivial technical thing to non-technical people, or techies writing for techies ? While at the very heart of the system there may be a control loop working on voltage - I'd be surprised if the main control loop wasn't working more or less on controlling the current as that's by far the easiest parameter to control if your aim is to control your output power (which is essential if your aim is to export as much of the DC from the panels as possible).


As to detecting mains disconnect, there are various techniques used - which vary depending on the size and nature of the generator. For small systems, rate of change of voltage and rate of change of phase/frequency are likely to be used. On larger system, they may be looking at the balance of the system (ie is the neutral still "in the middle").
Bear in mind it's not just a case of "one small inverter, lots of other load on this island" - it can be "lots of small generators, not necessarily massively different to the lots of load in this island". If there's enough resistive load, it may even be stable - a small rise or fall in voltage alters the load enough to match the generation. Also the generation may well settle at a matching supply - eg if the voltage rises, generator output will reduce if it can't raise it's OC voltage to match.

A customer at work has a 90kW water turbine. If that failed to trip when the local system was islanded then it could well supply the farm and surrounding houses quite effectively - though I suspect the speed control might struggle :eek: If the island is large enough, then the load will be relatively stable - any individual loads switching on or off would be a small part of the total and just cause a brief change (dip or raise in frequency respectively) before the governor took control again. I doubt the control system for a water turbine would run like that, but something like a diesel may well since diesels tend to be governed and the mechanical governor might manage it (it does for a standalone genny).
In practice, before such a system is allowed to be connected, the DNO has to be sure that the protection is adequate - you may wish to lookup G59 Protection.
 
Another multi line, fairly pountless post IMO.

The OP had his answer in basic terms, which was all that was needed.

I have been dealing with manufacturers of inverters recently to do with some issues on large sites which just were not exporting. Install company gone squit. After some redial works to cable sizing and liasing with te DNO, things are sorted. All down to voltage.

Another site, same issue with supply voltage too high, this time at 11kv with an 800kva turbine (ramped back to 500 for feed in tarrif benefits). Here, energy was exporting and not being used by the site. The site consumes £25k monthly, so it is more beneficial to use than export.

All issues have been solven with voltage threshold tweaks to firmware settings, or by sorting out voltage drop issues and supply volt issues.

Voltage is critical.
 
The inverters do push the voltage up to export their energy, the (potential)energy would just sit there otherwise.
Exactly - and, as you say, that is the short answer to the OP's question - indeed, the very answer which he actually suggested himself.

Kind Regards, John
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top