Spur

[ban-all-sheds]

And of course, none of this is helping AndyH, who I hope has not gone off in disgust at our bickering.

Andy - give us a bit more info about where the spur will run, what it will supply, and why extending the ring is inappropriate, and then as well as an assurance that a fused spur is safe, you might also get a verdict that it's OK to do as well.

 

[BR]

It never ceases to amaze me why when people have differing opinions on something, some need to resort to cheap insults..and no Ban that comment is not directed at you

Who else's name starts with b? Well theres me and theres ahhhh, ahhh ...........

 

[Millennium_Boy]

In my opinion, the only safe way to wire a ring-spur is to use a fused connection unit.

The only time an unfused spur can be used, is when surface mounting two adjacent sockets, with clipped direct surface mount cable, (2.5mm cable surface mount is rated at 26amps) and NOT exceeding One Metre long.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Are you sure about the "two" sockets?

 

[AndyH]

Christ, I'm exhausted after reading all this! Thanks to everyone for your comments though.

Ban, the current position is that I have one double socket in the corner of a room. I was hoping to increase this to 3 double sockets to avoid having trailing cables going everywhere.

As this is a bedroom i'm realistically going to be running no more than a couple of bedside lamps and a tv most of the time - maybe charging my mobile phone occasionally. Don't think i'll ever have occasion to run anything more powerfukl than that.

Any thoughts?

 

[Kimba]

Perhaps you could fit some 5Amp round pin lighting sockets, and run them off the downstairs or upstairs lighting circuit. If you are going to fit a 13amp socket thou, you MUST really use a ringmain or a fused spur connection. Although you might only be using a few amps, who is to say that when you move out, someone does't have a little fan heater plugged into one socket, and uses a hair dryer out of another. The next thing they know there will be a funny burning smell and a best the sockets will stop working, or two of the core will short in the under-rated cabling. (hopefully tripping some form of saftey device back at the consumer unit!)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ban, the current position is that I have one double socket in the corner of a room. I was hoping to increase this to 3 double sockets to avoid having trailing cables going everywhere.

As this is a bedroom i'm realistically going to be running no more than a couple of bedside lamps and a tv most of the time - maybe charging my mobile phone occasionally. Don't think i'll ever have occasion to run anything more powerfukl than that.

Any thoughts?

From a consumption POV, a 13A spur will cope with a couple of lamps, a TV and a phone charger - that lot probably adds up to no more than 5A.

How accessible are the cables? Could you extend the ring? Even if you are unable to replace the one of the cables connected to the existing socket, there's always the option of replacing the double socket with two singles, with one existing cable to each of them, and then you can extend the ring from one, through all the new ones and back to the other single replacement. Unless there's some daft regulation about how close together sockets are allowed to be...

Extending the ring is always best if you can. But if you really can't then your spur will be safe, and the worst that will happen if a future occupant tries to turn the room into a dry-heat sauna will be that the fuse in the FCU will blow...

Perhaps you could fit some 5Amp round pin lighting sockets, and run them off the downstairs or upstairs lighting circuit.

OK for the bedside lights, but not sure it's a good idea for the TV, and the phone charger will be an integral 13A plug-in one.

If you are going to fit a 13amp socket thou, you MUST really use a ringmain or a fused spur connection. Although you might only be using a few amps, who is to say that when you move out, someone does't have a little fan heater plugged into one socket, and uses a hair dryer out of another. The next thing they know there will be a funny burning smell and a best the sockets will stop working, or two of the core will short in the under-rated cabling. (hopefully tripping some form of saftey device back at the consumer unit!)

Err - yes, that's why all along we've said use a 13A FCU for the spur.

 

[Big_Spark]

it has been removed because "some one" pressed the "Alert Moderators" link, i basically gave my opinion of FWL_Engineer

or to be more precise my opinion of his comments and more to the point the way he does it.

but it does not take long to figure out who it was.

I would be interested to read that comment as I too missed it.

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me, or the way I sometime might put my point across.

 

[Big_Spark]

It never ceases to amaze me why when people have differing opinions on something, some need to resort to cheap insults..and no Ban that comment is not directed at you

Who else's name starts with b? Well theres me and theres ahhhh, ahhh ...........

My comment was not directed at anyone in particular, I have edited a couple of my own posts for falling into that very same trap...The insults do not help...taking the urine is fine, but blatant insults are not warranted.

 

[securespark]

FWL

We come to blows again.... North Vs South!!

I cannot possibly see how you can interpret the excerpt from the OSG as not being able to exceed two outlets on a 13A fused spur. OF COURSE YOU CAN!!

The current is limited by the fuse in the spur to a maximum of 13A and as long as the cables are up to that load, there is no earthly reason why you should not have as many outlets as you require.

The IEE are in total agreement with me on this point, having had many a lengthy discussion with them on points like this.

 

[Big_Spark]

Secure, I did not say it was dangerous, I simply stated that in my opinion it is unwise, pure and simple.

I agree the fuse limits the current in the spur, but this is a personal preference thing really. As Ian said, if the circuit is designed right originally, there should be no need for spurs.

 

[securespark]

FWL

I feel you mislead people into believing that a certain wiring method is against the regs, when in actual fact it is kosher but happens to be against your "personal preferences" or "opinion".

Quote

So the simple answer is no if you want to comply with the regulations.

Unquote

In fact the simple answer should have been "yes, it does comply with regs", and then you could have added your own opinion.

As the IEE tell you, the regs are a minimum standard, and if you want to exceed them , that's ok. But I strongly believe that there should be a clear segregation between what is the regs and what is personal opinion, then people can make up their minds as to what they want to do.

 

[Big_Spark]

Secure, please read the ORIGINAL post AGAIN. There is NO mention of a Fused Spur, he simply stated he was going to run a spur from the ring into a socket, then run a leg to a JB so he could add to it later.

Regardless of my personal opinion on the quantity of sockets added to a fused spur from a ring, the fact remains that there was no mention of one in this case and so my answer was actually correct..Yes I could have asked if he intended to add a Fused spur or come straight from the ring, but I simply answered the question as posed.

If you have some psychic ability that allows you to know more than he wrote, fine, be my guest, but I will answer a clearly and coherently asked question as I deem necessary at that time.

The debate about fused and unfused spurs came after the initial question.

But as usual I suppose you will disagree and state that it was obvious he meant FUSED spur..bla bla bla.

 

[securespark]

And sorry to go backwards, but I agree with Ban..

There is always potential for a d/s to be loaded with 26A, whether it is designed for this or not.

In fact, I remember speaking to a couple of accessory manufacturers quite a few years ago about loading a double socket (someone had a d/s feeding a washer & dryer) and tenby said they had tested theirs to 20A. Not quite 26A, but the mfrs seem to take account of a a little abuse.

It is logic really, with a d/s to expect some of them to draw more than 13A at one time or other in their life.

Maybe we should go back to the "old" way of a 16A radial for each outlet. There's food for thought!!

 

[Big_Spark]

And sorry to go backwards, but I agree with Ban..

There is always potential for a d/s to be loaded with 26A, whether it is designed for this or not.!!

You can agree with Ban, I do not, and did not disagree that 26A COULD NOT be drawn though a socket, I simply corrected the assumption that they were DESIGNED to take 26A.

To someone who does not know the situation it is easy to assume that a double socket could do this as each plug can have a 13A fuse in it...yet another example of the rule makers and manufacturers not getting together and resolving an apparent conflict.

Anyway, by sticking to this point about 26A potential, it just strengthens my opinion that a restriction should be placed on fused spurs from rings, regardless of the 13A fuse in the spur. Again this is personal opinion.