Staining oak floorboards
- Thread starter andy2306
- Start date
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colour hardwaxoil: long lasting protection, non-gloss and easier to repair when there are 'accidents'.
if i were you i would use a coloured varnish instead of a coloured hardwax oil.the problem you will have with wax oil is it can start to look a bit grubby after a few months of cleaning as the wax retains dirt more and that can age a floor verry easily.
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Grubby??
Only when you forget to read the clear instructions on the tin, wait too long to apply the second coat (which can be a natural one instead of the colour to 'soften' the colour effect) or place rugs back on the floor within 10 days!
The biggest advantage of using a hardwaxoil over a varnish is the fact that accidents can be repaired locally, where with varnish you could end up having to sand down the whole floor!
Another advantage is that oiled floors become even more beautiful over time - that'll never happen with a varnished floor!
Only when you forget to read the clear instructions on the tin, wait too long to apply the second coat (which can be a natural one instead of the colour to 'soften' the colour effect) or place rugs back on the floor within 10 days!
The biggest advantage of using a hardwaxoil over a varnish is the fact that accidents can be repaired locally, where with varnish you could end up having to sand down the whole floor!
Another advantage is that oiled floors become even more beautiful over time - that'll never happen with a varnished floor!
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For stain, use Sadolin - it is best to use an outdoor product as it is designed to stretch and contract with the wood over the seasons without any cracking, all floors will move considerably over a year with central heating and varying humidity so your sealant needs to have flexibility also it also resists UV damage (which can happen to floors by patio doors and large windows) which unlike fabrics actually darkens the wood rather than fades it
IMO hardwax oils are the lazy mans and cowboy tradesmans way as they are very quickly applied, the wax fills gaps and the matt finish hides poor preparation wherby a high gloss finish shows every little mark and takes much more attention to detail - as they say "its all in the preparation"
Yacht varnish is the hardest to apply as it dries slowly and is very sticky which attracts airborne dust, dries harder requiring more sanding between coats and an almost airtight room to achieve perfection
Also, a high gloss finish requires much more maintenance as it will show scratches.
Ronseal contractor quick seal is water based and in gloss, satin or matt finish. http://www.ronsealcontractor.co.uk/prodshow.asp?prodID=1
It is a genuine neutral finish i.e. does not darken or stain so your chosen colour will remain, unlike other finishes which will darken the floor with each coat even when they are described as clear. Look at most other products and they will be yellow coloured, always test a few coats of all products you are intending using on an off cut of your flooring first.
Before you start applying any finishing product, empty the room and tie up curtains etc so the floor is clear. Ensure you sweep and hoover the floor and then mop it at least four times with clean water only, (no soaps) change the bucket every square metre or so as it becomes discoloured, once the water remains clear you have got as much of the dust out as you can, wear light coloured laundered cotton socks over shoes to avoid marks, start in the furthest corner and work back to the door
Don't lay whatever product you choose on too thickly and use an old fashioned long bristle brush rather than a roller (a roller is another quick fix preferred by cowboys), choose a brush the same width as the plank so any brush marks and overruns will be at the t&g joints of the planks - lay with the grain and apply light coats, the first coat will lift the grain and make it swell so will require a full rub over with sandpaper, then apply further light coats, sand lightly with 240 grit between coats and look for any dripped spots or further grain lifting, it takes longer but 5-6 light coats rather than the 3-4 recommended will give you a much better result.
IMO hardwax oils are the lazy mans and cowboy tradesmans way as they are very quickly applied, the wax fills gaps and the matt finish hides poor preparation wherby a high gloss finish shows every little mark and takes much more attention to detail - as they say "its all in the preparation"
Yacht varnish is the hardest to apply as it dries slowly and is very sticky which attracts airborne dust, dries harder requiring more sanding between coats and an almost airtight room to achieve perfection
Also, a high gloss finish requires much more maintenance as it will show scratches.
Ronseal contractor quick seal is water based and in gloss, satin or matt finish. http://www.ronsealcontractor.co.uk/prodshow.asp?prodID=1
It is a genuine neutral finish i.e. does not darken or stain so your chosen colour will remain, unlike other finishes which will darken the floor with each coat even when they are described as clear. Look at most other products and they will be yellow coloured, always test a few coats of all products you are intending using on an off cut of your flooring first.
Before you start applying any finishing product, empty the room and tie up curtains etc so the floor is clear. Ensure you sweep and hoover the floor and then mop it at least four times with clean water only, (no soaps) change the bucket every square metre or so as it becomes discoloured, once the water remains clear you have got as much of the dust out as you can, wear light coloured laundered cotton socks over shoes to avoid marks, start in the furthest corner and work back to the door
Don't lay whatever product you choose on too thickly and use an old fashioned long bristle brush rather than a roller (a roller is another quick fix preferred by cowboys), choose a brush the same width as the plank so any brush marks and overruns will be at the t&g joints of the planks - lay with the grain and apply light coats, the first coat will lift the grain and make it swell so will require a full rub over with sandpaper, then apply further light coats, sand lightly with 240 grit between coats and look for any dripped spots or further grain lifting, it takes longer but 5-6 light coats rather than the 3-4 recommended will give you a much better result.
You are rather opinionated, aren't you chkee? lazy mans and cowboy tradesmans way?
Must be the reason that all main manufacturers use high quality hardwaxoil for their pre-finished boards nowadays, manufacturers of unfinished wood recommend hardwaxoil etc.
Lazy mans and cowboy tradesman will ruin every type of finish product - because they don't know how to apply it, use it, prepare the floor etc. Not the product faults.
And you are NOT?
if you had read gerry666's post correctly before stating your opinionated view that he didn't know how to apply hardwaxoil when he was actually stating that it gets grubby over time through wear, which is correct
As it is a paraffin wax base it remains greasy and wears off fairly quickly requiring re-application (18 months) and therefore has higher maintenance costs.
As far as manufacturers using it, you may find manufacturers of the lower cost products use it due to the same reasons I stated, cheap to buy and quick to apply, hides defects and therefore requiring less detailed preparation
Lets agree never to agree, before this ends (again) in yes/no discussion of who knows best or what is the best product.
You use your products, we use ours. As long as both our clients always get the best suited for their circumstances product/advice etc.
Times and products change - innovations etc - tried, tested and recommended by quality manufactures, retailers and installers.
have a good weekend
You use your products, we use ours. As long as both our clients always get the best suited for their circumstances product/advice etc.
Times and products change - innovations etc - tried, tested and recommended by quality manufactures, retailers and installers.
have a good weekend
I do suggest you keep up to date with innovations, trade magazines etc.
Example: CFJ September 2008 issue, article by the Technical Manager of BonaKemi (not one of the cowboy outlets I'm sure you can agree on?)
BonaKemi - Mmmm
Some very large manufacturers make millions turning out huge volumes of a low cost product, but that doesn't make it the best choice - e.g we aren't all walking on bare chipboard even though it serves its purpose as a floor very well. DIY stores sell millions of litres of 'own brand' paints but that doesn't make them the best
The point I am making here is that a prescriptive manner isn't giving a client all the options.
Each client has different needs and, most importantly, budget.
There are many different finishes, Waxes, Oils, Laquers, Varnishes, Hardwaxoils etc, and there are many various qualities and prices amongst these.
Whilst I agree Bona do SOME excellent natural oils, their product range is large, and includes fixings, machines and abrasives. Whilst they are clearly in the wood flooring market it seems more based on financial share of market than driven by a core product expertise. The old expression Jack of All trades, Master of None comes to mind. My choice is to use well established natural products from small manufacturers, I believe smaller production volumes result in better consistency and I like to be able to talk to a real person not a so called product expert in a call centre.
Clients also want to know what is in and where the product originates from and are resistant to products from the chemical industry, something these good old fashioned products have been doing for years and have far greater knowledge of than the large companies grown from chemical based products.
I certainly don't like the use of paraffin wax based products in a domestic situation where children are playing on and end up digesting this petroleum derivative.
Don't get me wrong about what your business offers and I would not attempt to comment on your standard of work as I have never seen it, none of what I have debated with you is directed at your company, just your prescriptive manner of giving advice and disagreeing with others on this forum.
I fully appreciate that a small two person business servicing the general public can only provide a service up to a standard within the clients budget and the margins they need to make to survive. That includes the need to use machinery and products that help to reduce fitting and finishing time.
I am just offering alternative advice based on a (with due respect) higher quality through greater investment of time - as in a hand crafted solid wood bespoke kitchen compared to an 'off the shelf' one, including highly expensive Italian designer (but still mass produced and made from laminated MDF).
DIYERS have different objectives, some just want to save money or cannot afford to pay a tradesman. Some enjoy doing it themselves, or had a bad experience and have lost trust in tradesmen.
Others just want a much higher quality finish than they want or can afford to pay for. And so will do it themselves.
These are to whom my advice is aimed at - (the opposite to my clients, "cash rich - time poor") these are "time rich and cash poor" and may be happy to invest weeks in getting perfection.
The reason for joining this forum was that, as I am now semi-retired with time on my hands, I felt I can offer my 30+ years of experience and knowledge as a craftsman. It was NOT to enter into a battle of words with you over low cost products or time saving methods of work.
Methods that give an adequate result may fine for the majority, but (without knocking that standard) a larger budget and more time will ALWAYS result in a finer standard. e.g. a Jaguar is a great car but a Rolls Royce will always be better.
So, perhaps, rather than attempting to dominate this forum with your views and contradicting any alternative advice offered by others (unless technically incorrect) you will show some respect for different methods and opinions and merely post any responses as an alternative rather than as direct criticism.
i.e. it would be much more polite to word alternative views on posts by starting with words such as "or as an alternative you could... I prefer to..."
Some very large manufacturers make millions turning out huge volumes of a low cost product, but that doesn't make it the best choice - e.g we aren't all walking on bare chipboard even though it serves its purpose as a floor very well. DIY stores sell millions of litres of 'own brand' paints but that doesn't make them the best
The point I am making here is that a prescriptive manner isn't giving a client all the options.
Each client has different needs and, most importantly, budget.
There are many different finishes, Waxes, Oils, Laquers, Varnishes, Hardwaxoils etc, and there are many various qualities and prices amongst these.
Whilst I agree Bona do SOME excellent natural oils, their product range is large, and includes fixings, machines and abrasives. Whilst they are clearly in the wood flooring market it seems more based on financial share of market than driven by a core product expertise. The old expression Jack of All trades, Master of None comes to mind. My choice is to use well established natural products from small manufacturers, I believe smaller production volumes result in better consistency and I like to be able to talk to a real person not a so called product expert in a call centre.
Clients also want to know what is in and where the product originates from and are resistant to products from the chemical industry, something these good old fashioned products have been doing for years and have far greater knowledge of than the large companies grown from chemical based products.
I certainly don't like the use of paraffin wax based products in a domestic situation where children are playing on and end up digesting this petroleum derivative.
Don't get me wrong about what your business offers and I would not attempt to comment on your standard of work as I have never seen it, none of what I have debated with you is directed at your company, just your prescriptive manner of giving advice and disagreeing with others on this forum.
I fully appreciate that a small two person business servicing the general public can only provide a service up to a standard within the clients budget and the margins they need to make to survive. That includes the need to use machinery and products that help to reduce fitting and finishing time.
I am just offering alternative advice based on a (with due respect) higher quality through greater investment of time - as in a hand crafted solid wood bespoke kitchen compared to an 'off the shelf' one, including highly expensive Italian designer (but still mass produced and made from laminated MDF).
DIYERS have different objectives, some just want to save money or cannot afford to pay a tradesman. Some enjoy doing it themselves, or had a bad experience and have lost trust in tradesmen.
Others just want a much higher quality finish than they want or can afford to pay for. And so will do it themselves.
These are to whom my advice is aimed at - (the opposite to my clients, "cash rich - time poor") these are "time rich and cash poor" and may be happy to invest weeks in getting perfection.
The reason for joining this forum was that, as I am now semi-retired with time on my hands, I felt I can offer my 30+ years of experience and knowledge as a craftsman. It was NOT to enter into a battle of words with you over low cost products or time saving methods of work.
Methods that give an adequate result may fine for the majority, but (without knocking that standard) a larger budget and more time will ALWAYS result in a finer standard. e.g. a Jaguar is a great car but a Rolls Royce will always be better.
So, perhaps, rather than attempting to dominate this forum with your views and contradicting any alternative advice offered by others (unless technically incorrect) you will show some respect for different methods and opinions and merely post any responses as an alternative rather than as direct criticism.
i.e. it would be much more polite to word alternative views on posts by starting with words such as "or as an alternative you could... I prefer to..."
Indeed, you don't know us, nor the advice we - 'small' two persons 'band' have been giving here and in our showroom etc to both 'cash-rich - time poor' clients, 'time-rich' - 'cash-poor' clients and our large number of DIY clients.
As said before: hardwaxoil is NOT for the lazy people, nor for the cowboy traders.
If you have experiences with other products, fine with us, but don't condemn our advice on products we and many other manufacturers and diy-ers have great experiences with.
Chkee, sorry to come back to this, had read over it the first time.
All HardWaxOils - at least the brands we use, and I know that most brands follow 'the leader' - are even allowed to be used on children's toys. There are no petroleum derivatives in it.
If you read the label of many hardwaxoil products you will find that amongst the list of ingredients is definitely paraffin, the use of paraffin is how the wax is suspended as a liquid so as to be applied
for example, a product you have previously recommended on this forum is Osmo Polyx
take a look at its ingredients sheet http://www.osmouk.com/ingredients/ingpolyxoil.pdf
the product data sheet lists amongst the ingredients "paraffins which are obtained from the processing of petroleum..."
they have added some spin to this by adding " and which are approved for the use in pharmacy and medicine.." interpret what you want from that statement, but the fact that the law states that paraffin MUST always be listed as an ingredient in any product signifies that is is a 'risky' petrochemical
not sure about the products you sell as I have been unable to find a data sheet in English - it may be worth you checking this out to maintain your 'green' credentiality
for example, a product you have previously recommended on this forum is Osmo Polyx
take a look at its ingredients sheet http://www.osmouk.com/ingredients/ingpolyxoil.pdf
the product data sheet lists amongst the ingredients "paraffins which are obtained from the processing of petroleum..."
they have added some spin to this by adding " and which are approved for the use in pharmacy and medicine.." interpret what you want from that statement, but the fact that the law states that paraffin MUST always be listed as an ingredient in any product signifies that is is a 'risky' petrochemical
not sure about the products you sell as I have been unable to find a data sheet in English - it may be worth you checking this out to maintain your 'green' credentiality
OK, take a look at the wood-waxfinish (Oil/wax products like HardWaxOil). Osmo and other brands will comply with the same health regulations. So if you look at the product information sheet it says:
And Blanchon's, the brand we use, PDF file can be found here
If you want to keep having a go at me or our advice, be my guest. We could also change tactics and advice all who come here for advice the best advice based on the products, experience, training etc we both have had and still receive. Before you retired you've worked with other products apparently than we. And we are always learning - that's one of the main objectives of our business: keeping up to date with all innovations, new products etc.
Nobody is gaining or winning here, specially not the DIY-ers who regard this forum as one of the best. Let's work on that.
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