Staircase design space saving options

[Hl.house]

Hi All, we need to replace old stairs as it is unsafe(fully open risers) and it blocks walkway. Total going for a normal straight stairs is approx 280cm for our floor to floor height(probably 260cm). Our house is very narrow so we cannot have a going of more than 200 - 220cm (+ landing space). Any ideas how to achieve this?
A carpenter once mentioned something like drop landing. What is that?

 

[Mikefromlondon]

a sketched plan of the area would certainly help, putting all dimensions on.

 

[Hl.house]

a sketched plan of the area would certainly help, putting all dimensions on.

Thank you for replying. Sorry, I do not know how to do a sketched plan. Some more information below.
1. This is a typical, narrow, 2up 2 down, victorian terraced house where the stairs divide two rooms upstairs and downstairs.
2. Staircase/well enclosed between two(structural) walls. Floor to floor height is 260cm.
3. Available space for stairs replacement = 80cm x 360cm (straight staircase + bottom landing + top landing).
Total going for a standard straight staircase is approx 280cm. If we buy these stairs we have no space left for one of the landings.

ps. The whole house is only 3.6m wide.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Impossible to answer fully without a layout. Draw a sketch plan of the upper and lower floor plans - like an estate agents plan - and then write the dimensions of each wall on. It doesn't need to be anything special, a bit like the image I've shown but with a dimension on each wall. If you're nice we might have a doodle ourselves to see what fits.

 

[Hl.house]

Thank you for your post, FMT. If it is of any help, below is a plan of similar house.

Space between the walls, where the stairs is enclosed, is no more than 80cm

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Very tight space for a straight flight run, what is the current riser and going for your steps, and how many do you have .
I worked out you need about 13 risers at max 20cm by 23cm going for a decent size steps, the way i would propose new stairs would be a flight of 7 steps straight up to a corner landing (just in front of your present kitchen door, so your present kitchen door will need to be blocked up, and a new door opened to its right. Then you would have 3 further steps in that corner and another 3 to 4 more steps to right and a long landing taking you to bedroom doors.

What this means is the living room space will be little compromised, and to get into kitchen you will need to pass under the upper 3 or 4 steps which should clear sufficient height for a door to be put under, but you will also gain some space in your living room as you would not need one of the walls previously used for supporting the stairs, but you may need to check structural integrity and so a beam across to support upper room wall, and floor and possibly the weight of your roof if this wall was previously a load bearing wall . All depends which way your floor joists run, what carrys the weight etc.For your stairs you will only need 2 novel posts, and underneath stairs you can have storage space.

Plans not to scale

If you don't want to undertake major structural changes, stick to your old layout and just renew it, BC or planers can't condemn what that house came with when it was build years ago prewar era.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I can't offer anymore without dimensions, estate agents drawings are generally hugely inaccurate and if you want to use every last mm to improve an already tight staircase then accurate dimensions are required. All you gotta do is measure the walls with a tape measure.

 

[Hl.house]

Very tight space for a straight flight run, what is the current riser and going for your steps, and how many do you have .
I worked out you need about 13 risers at max 20cm by 23cm going for a decent size steps, the way i would propose new stairs would be a flight of 7 steps straight up to a corner landing (just in front of your present kitchen door, so your present kitchen door will need to be blocked up, and a new door opened to its right. Then you would have 3 further steps in that corner and another 3 to 4 more steps to right and a long landing taking you to bedroom doors.

What this means is the living room space will be little compromised, and to get into kitchen you will need to pass under the upper 3 or 4 steps which should clear sufficient height for a door to be put under, but you will also gain some space in your living room as you would not need one of the walls previously used for supporting the stairs, but you may need to check structural integrity and so a beam across to support upper room wall, and floor and possibly the weight of your roof if this wall was previously a load bearing wall . All depends which way your floor joists run, what carrys the weight etc.For your stairs you will only need 2 novel posts, and underneath stairs you can have storage space.

Plans not to scale
View attachment 113005

If you don't want to undertake major structural changes, stick to your old layout and just renew it, BC or planers can't condemn what that house came with when it was build years ago prewar era.

Thanks MFL. Yes, the walls are all structural. So I will need to remove two structural(solid bricks) walls, have two steel beams to support first floor and roof structure.
Will I also need to increase the ceiling height for some of the seven steps to have a head clearance of 2m. If yes, this will mean raising the front bedroom floor? Not sure how much all the changes will cost.
Current stairs are very steeeep...

 

[Hl.house]

I can't offer anymore without dimensions, estate agents drawings are generally hugely inaccurate and if you want to use every last mm to improve an already tight staircase then accurate dimensions are required. All you gotta do is measure the walls with a tape measure.

FMT, I measured the dimensions in the stairwell using a tape and it is 3.6m(length wise) and 80cm width for the stairs to fit.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Hi.house we need more importantly the height of your first floor from ground floor that is more important, even the height you can measure from floor to ceiling in the living room can give us near enough information as we can add the depth of the floor to it.

I have revised my plans and I forgot that one of the bedrooms upstairs will also lose some space as you would need a minimum head clearance of 2m above any steps, so one of the corners is going to have to be lost to stairwell, and a third plan shows another option where you recover some wasted space in to useful function such as built in wardrobes in each room.

The width is not a problem, 80cm is acceptable.

 

[Hl.house]

Hi.house we need more importantly the height of your first floor from ground floor that is more important, even the height you can measure from floor to ceiling in the living room can give us near enough information as we can add the depth of the floor to it.

I have revised my plans and I forgot that one of the bedrooms upstairs will also lose some space as you would need a minimum head clearance of 2m above any steps, so one of the corners is going to have to be lost to stairwell, and a third plan shows another option where you recover some wasted space in to useful function such as built in wardrobes in each room.

The width is not a problem, 80cm is acceptable.

Ah sorry, I thought I posted floor to floor height. Here it is -

2. Staircase/well enclosed between two(structural) walls. Floor to floor height is 260cm.

As I understand I will need to leave 80cm x 2 = 160cm for landing(top + bottom). So I only have 2m x 80cm foot print left. A standard straight flight is approx 280cm. I have a shortfall of 80cm.
If I do a combination of drop landing(top) + step landing(bottom) will it work?

i am trying to avoid a turn because the steel beam will come in the way(height clearance)

 

[Mikefromlondon]

As I said, a straight flight of stairs will be very tight, and not meet toadys minimum going 23cm and max rise of 21cm I believe, steel beam poses a bit of a challenge, but it can be terminated on a column just where the 2nd Novel post would be. and the rest of the floor can then be supported on double joists near the edges of the stairs, a structural engineer should have no problem working it out, you will only need one column that will need erecting and good foundation with large foot print to spread load.

Number of steps will depend on the height, which we still don't know exactly what is your floor to floor height?????????

 

[Mikefromlondon]

You could however get 10 goings at 20cm each but with a nosing projecting by 30mm can give you an effective 23cm step, so 10 goings mean 11 risers, if each riser is 20cm , you can reach a final height of 220cm, this is where your upper landing is, (80x80cm) then if need be you could have one final step at the door to the bedroom thus giving you 240cm final height from floor to floor.

Or you could reduce the landing size to 70cmx80cm and get 11goings and 12 risers that will give you 240cm to upper landing and a further single step in front of each door to bedroom of another 20cm to get a final floor to floor height of 260cm, I don't like the idea of having a step immediately in front of a door, but those who live in the house will soon get used to and subconsciously be aware of this step. Regulations are there to prevent such slips and trips.

The steps may not meet todays recommended sizes and angles, but you have no choice there, other than to use turned stairs. But for all practical purposes it will be just manageable,

 

[Hl.house]

Number of steps will depend on the height, which we still don't know exactly what is your floor to floor height?????????

260cm.

cross posted

 

[Hl.house]

You could however get 10 goings at 20cm each but with a nosing projecting by 30mm can give you an effective 23cm step, so 10 goings mean 11 risers, if each riser is 20cm , you can reach a final height of 220cm, this is where your upper landing is, (80x80cm) then if need be you could have one final step at the door to the bedroom thus giving you 240cm final height from floor to floor.

The steps may not meet todays recommended sizes and angles, but you have no choice there, other than to use turned stairs. But for all practical purposes it will be just manageable,

Thanks. I hope BCO accepts this.
Is there any picture of the final step at the bedroom door? I struggle to understand the step on the landing.