Steel pipes - the plot thickens

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From inspection of my central heating system pipework (using my eyes & a fridge magnet), I have the following:-

kitchen - pipes in boxing and under unit - copper
bathroom - radiator loop - copper
living room - radiator loop - steel
cloakarea - pipes to upstairs - copper
bedroom 3 - radiator loop - copper
bedroom 2 - radiator loop - steel,
pipes to loft and bedroom 3 - copper
bedroom 1 - radiator loops - copper

Other than by lifting the floorboards, is there any means of determining how extensive the steel is under the living room floor and under bedroom 2?

Given that there's no means to tell the quality of pipework, do plumbers generally ask for an indemnity when they powerflush the central heating system, or is it only when they see some steel?
 
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Ah, I sense that you're not so sure of yourself now. In theory a very sensitive device could detect the magnetic steel through the carpet and floorboards. Those devices used for finding pipes and wires in walls should locate pipes (and wires, nails, etc.) below floorboards, at least where they run across joists, but to distinguish between copper and steel....? Probably Agile or ChrisR will know something, but have you perhaps alienated them already?
 
We ask clients to sign a written indemnity when power flushing an old system. This is primarily in respect of possible leaks from rads.

It is to ensure that the client understands that rads may leak and replacing them will be his responsibility.

Making this clear is good business practice and enables us to do the work at the minimum cost without any arguments.

With newer systems we tell the client verbally but dont bother with the written form although we sometimes give them a sheet explaining what we are going to do and the risks involved.

We see very few steel pipes systems and usually let the client use a Polish plumber who will not understand the risks involved. Since its not possible to take legal action against migrant workers any problems will then be sorted out by the client at his cost.

Tony
 
Thanks guys. It seems that I'll need to lift all the floorboards to see how much steel I've got and how much copper. However, given that it seems that I'll have to sign a waiver anyway, it's probably a pointless exercise.

It seems to me that the likelihood of failure of pipework is down to:-
1. It's age
2. How well it was installed
3. How well the system has been maintained.

I can't really understand why no indemnity is required for new pipework which may have been badly installed but is for older pipework which may have been installed & maintained well.

I'm assuming that the indemnity form wouldn't include indemnity for the work that the plumber has actually carried out? i.e. if the boiler packs up within 3 months, the plumber's still liable, right?

If I lift the floorboards & discover it is only the radiator loops in the living room & bedroom 2 which are still steel, will it still be an issue for a UK Corgi engineer?
 
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What sort of steel? Does it look at first like ordinary copper pipe, 15mm or 22mm or equivalent, which will be the thin frightening stuff, which can be plated so it's solderable?
Or is it "barrel" which is thick and heavy with threads cut on its ends which go into bulky screwed connections? "Half inch barrel" - the size rads would normally have, is about 3/4" outside diameter. Barrel can be galvanised or "black".

Yours is a mixed system, which is worse than all steel, because of the increased scope for electrolytic corrosion.

Any old pipe, copper or more likely steel, most especially the thin steel one, can have pin-holes covered in paint or oxides (Cu or Fe) which is stopping them leaking.
One in ten or so old copper systems leaks enough to need attention when powerflushed with chemicals. Some say it's better to use stronger ones (eg citric/phosphoric acids) to really find any future trouble spots sooner rather than later. Often the holes are in the middle of radiators, covered by paint.

Leaks often don't appear until later, after the new boiler's gone in.

If you get a leak, it isn't usually a disaster, you just get a puddle, and you fix it. Nobody would indemnify the thin steel though. If you get slight weep, eg at screwed joints, you can use internal leak sealer. Ask BG for their terms; small companies aren't in the business of selling insurance. It's your house, a lot of unknowns and your risk, unless you pay enough to cover all eventualities.

You don't have to use any chems, fit a filter and magnetic trapper in the return to protect the boiler and you'll probably be ok - these are new so nobody will indemnify on the strength of their use. It's combis which are particularly susceptible to clogging up with system grot. If use a cast iron thing like a Potterton Profile 50 (<£500), they don't care about it because the waterways are huge. Non condensing so will cost you plenty in gas.

If it's part barrel, better out than in, rads don't last forever either. It might be reasonable for you to keep it, but if I were buying the place I'd take the cost of replacement off the house price, no questions.
If you flushed with plain water or gentle chems you could pressure test it but rad valve stems etc do lose a tiny bit so you wouldn't really know where you were. The tiny leak could be from a pipe in the middle of a ceiling, about to get much worse. And it might very well hold up 3 bar cold, then lose it when hot, or after a week under gravity at only 5 meters head (0.5 bar).

Your next boiler might last say 15 years (Profile nearer 25?). If your rads & steel pipes are already 35 they'll certainly be due, most likely overdue, for replacement then.

If you want a full metallographic analysis, all about ion capture, pitting cell morphology, intergranular corrosion development, passivation maintenance, where the steel was made, and things, cut it up and send me £5k and some samples. It might be interesting, though probably not, and I still couldn't say if it was going to leak tomorrow.
 
"""if the boiler packs up within 3 months, the plumber's still liable, right?"""

Professionals beware! This is the kind of customer who calls you for a £50 boiler service and expects full boiler breakdown insurance to be included for the next two years.

I am sure (not) that his Polish unregistered plumber will give him a full guaranty on his unqualified work!
 
Thanks Chris, for the extensive reply.

My current thinking on this is that I'd like to replace the pipework in the living room, as I want to remove the long radiator which is currently at the bottom of the stairs, and install a radiator against the wall to the kitchen facing in to the room, and a radiator to the right of the open fire in the living room, and a radiator to the left of the open fire in the dining room.

The living room floor is wooden planked covered in carpet, so shouldn't be too much of a nightmare for a plumber.

By the sounds of it, I should also be replacing the steel radiator loop in bedroom 2.

You might then say, well why not replace the whole lot, but my issues there are that the cost of making good increases.

I've not seen any signs of corrosion on any of the radiators yet. How can you tell the age of a radiator?

In response to Agile, I'm asking if a new boiler was installed and pipework done in the Living room only, I'd accept that a plumber isn't liable for leaks elsewhere in the system, but don't see why he shouldn't be liable for the quality of his boiler installation work or for leaks appearing in the pipework which he's installed. What's unreasonable about that? Clearly, the more that a plumber tries to escape liability, the cheaper his rate should be.
 
If you're lifting your floor to move rads, etc, you could "replace" long, straight, branch-free runs of 15mm steel pipe running across joists by threading 10mm plastic pipe inside. this size would be adequate for most individual rads over most distances. You could thereby avoid lifting so much of the floor. Where runs are between joists, using plastic pipe which can be "cabled" through such voids will also minimise the amount of floor lifting.
 
if the boiler packs up within 3 months, the plumber's still liable, right?

Sale of Goods Act might say so, but it's like White Goods if you're buying from a small shop. Manufacturer takes it up, otherwise plumbers/sellers would avoid their products.

More difficult is the pipework the plumber does - suppose it leaks? Most little firms wouldn't offer much in the way of a written guarantee. Many would say "it was ok when I left, so you must have damaged it, tough". Some would repair the pipe "as a goodwill gesture, without predjudice". Consequential losses would be specifically excluded in most contracts, or you'd have to sue and have a hard time, so you'd claim on your household insurance. You could try to sue a small guy who didn't bother with a contract, but he might have no assets by the time judgement came. DO tell us what it says on your Pole's quote, please!

Sounds to me like you should go for a big company, (BG is big but otherwise not special ) and you'll get the better end of the available cover and pay quite a lot for it. Other companies can give you a gold plated service, for huge sums. £20k to put heating in a small Mayfair flat, is peanuts.
 
Here in lies my problem as a consumer. I could go for the nice Mr Polski, very cheap but no warranties or I could go for the experienced Corgi-approved Mr Smith who'll give me a sales pitch with lots of references to Building Regs but deny liability for anything that was his fault.

I'd like to employ Mr Smith, but he doesn't half make it difficult for me.
 
Try a co. that is based "in the sticks" and is willing to travel to The Smoke. The wages are almost Polish out here :eek: Unless you`re Central London :cry: Radiator * loop* in bed2 ? Not 2 parallel.F/R pipes?.....You`ve not got a one pipe system too :oops: Not good.
 
or I could go for the experienced Corgi-approved

Everyone has to be Corgi Registered - that does not mean being APPROVED, just not illegal!

So you seem to see your choice as being between the cheap illegal, and the absolute bare minimum.

If you go (arguably) up a notch to an IPHE member, you will as it says in section 10 get someone who gives you the information you need. To get the information YOU want though, you'd better plump for a minor deity.

Being magnanimous chaps, most of us will give you additional free information, about for instance, how big a pain in the arse you'd be to work for ;)
 
I think someone ought to give jdey a copy of the crappy CD that CORGI sent round with their comic recently...... Then he would be in a better position to judge between one installer and another... or not!
 
Quote:

"""if the boiler packs up within 3 months, the plumber's still liable, right? """

When I first quoted that it seemed that jdey was only talking about power flushing!

If you have a new boiler installed then the installer should give a full 12 months unconditional guarantee which is backed up by the manufacturer if part of the boiler fails ( which is very rare ). Most problems are leaks and uncleaned dirt in the system. We give this and thats what you should expect, BUT we quote for power flushing and if the client does not agree then we do not do the job! We either do it properly or not at all.

In a moment I am going to sort out a boiler fitted by a non reg which worked for just a week! He only charged £250 !

Tony Glazier
 

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