Steel pipes

[jdey]

I've had 2 plumbers around quoting for a new boiler.

1st plumber said that I'd need to replace all of the piping because it was steel and wouldn't be able to withstand a powerflush.

2nd plumber went on about a copper strike when my piping was installed and said that it should be replaced but so long as I confirmed in writing that they wouldn't be responsible for leaks during the powerflush, they'd be happy to proceed.

I know the pipes to my house extensions are copper but confirmed with a fridge magnet that the pipes in the main part of the house are steel.

My question is, what's the issue with steel? They're still making it for home plumbing http://www.buildingtalk.com/news/bhs/bhs101.html and the admittedly biased BSSA claim it has a longer lifespan than copper.

Also, the internal parts of even modern radiators are made of thinner steel than my pipes, so why would my pipes burst before the radiators? Could an experienced plumber elaborate on whereabouts in the system these leaks appear e.g. joints in pipes, connnection to the radiator etc.

 

[Agile]

Since you clearly have your own strong opinion on your steel pipes I would suggest you write out an indemnity form for both of your plumbers and let them go ahead with the work at your own risk! And good luck!

Both your plumbers have correctly identified your steel pipework and are experienced enough to know the problems it can cause. Thats good!

I am glad that I have not given you any quotations because I like my clients to accept my professional advice but if they think that they know better then I don't work for them!

Tony

 

[jdey]

Reasons with substantiating evidence only, please. From what I can tell, plumbers should be pressure testing the system before doing the powerflush, not just getting indemnity from the client & keeping their fingers crossed.

 

[Agile]

jdey, if you say that then you clearly do not understand what is involved in doing a power flush!

And to what pressure do you think that the plumber should pressure test rads? And what chemicals should he use?

By all means ask professionals for advice, but I dont think that you should be "telling professionals" how they should be doing their job!

You clearly have a very low opinion of plumbers! Whilst some are obviously not very clever its not very encouraging to plumbers with degrees in metallurgy and chemistry!

Tony

 

[croydoncorgi]

Pressure is not the only issue with flushing. Problem is that the chemical can displace corrosion which has been helping hold the pipes / rads together! Also, flushing pressure is not that high anyway - max 2 Bar or so, I guess.

Anyway - say your plumber DID pressure-test before he flushed and the pressure test failed - by bursting a dodgy pipe under the floor, under a kitchen unit!

 

[jdey]

Ok those a valid points, but how does one know when piping should be replaced or not?

I've used chemical descaler in the system in the last year, and haven't had any leaks from the pipes.

If I had the pipework replaced, the plumber could do a bad job with the joints, resulting in leaks in inaccessible areas. This is apparantly a not uncommon occurrence.

 

[Agile]

"" I've used chemical descaler "".

But do you know what the actual chemical was ? Was it chosen with your steel pipes in mind? Or was it just bought as a bottle in a shed with no indication of the composition?

Tony

 

[jdey]

Agile, much as I'd be relieved to know that a Corgi-registered plumber comes equipped with a degree in metallurgy & chemisty, I suspect that's not the case, and if it were so, they would be able to point me to a thesis which demonstrates the risk of failure of steel piping over time. The 2 plumbers didn't inspect the pipework or carry out any tests on it.

If you took your car to your dealer with a leaking radiator, you wouldn't just take his word that you need a brand new car, you'd ask for some kind of explanation as to why. Obviously plumbers have a vested interest in replacing my pipework as it doubles their bill. I'd also have to redecorate substantial parts of my house. If I was presented with evidence of a problem, then I'd agree with them.

 

[Nige F]

If I had the pipework replaced, the plumber could do a bad job with the joints, resulting in leaks in inaccessible areas. This is apparantly a not uncommon occurrence.

I not unusually do a not unlikely dodgy joint in a not accessible place when I discover the customer is not likely to be a good one I left them all to their own devices when I retired ..now I just do this for fun and my amusement Good luck in your search for the evidence you need@the price you want

 

[jdey]

Sounds about right, NigeF. Unfortunately for cowboys like you, I'm as thorough when the jobs being done. I check everything that a plumber does until I'm sure that he's competent when I can leave him in peace.

 

[compheat]

A lot depends on the steel pipes. If they are mild steel pipes then they are probably going to be ok, but if there tin washed iron that was used extensively in the late 60s then they need replacing. Also some plumbers dont like iron piping for some reason thats behond me ive had two jobs recently were the customer was told that the iron needed replacing and the pipe work was in good condition.

 

[Agile]

jdey said """I check everything that a plumber does until I'm sure that he's competent when I can leave him in peace."""

If you are knowledgeable enough to "judge" a plumber's competence then that requires one level of competence above that of your plumber! In that case why not do the work yourself?

In view of the questions that you are asking, my judgement is that you know little about plumbing in general and steel pipes in particular!

You would also know that corrosion in pipework is not linear but concentrated in small areas where micro impurities, physical stresses or electrolytic action occur. The mode and location of pipe failure cannot therefore be assessed accurately as you seem to expect.

Tony

 

[jdey]

Thanks compheat.

It's obviously a good idea to replace all of the pipework if it is 30 years old, but it's a matter of budget. The pipework could go tomorrow or it could last another 20 years, by which time I'll be long gone from the house. Steel corrosion is dependent on too many factors to be certain as to when it will fail.

If the plumbers who come around tell me that it's a good idea then I'd trust them. However, I don't like being told things are mandatory without proof or explanation. To my mind, it's a simple procedure for them to pressure test the system to check for existing leaks. If, as I suspect, there's not a current problem then they can proceed with the powerflush. If there is a problem, then I'd give the green light for a complete pipe replacement.

I distrust both plumbers so far because:-
the 1st one wanted to put down new piping in different positions from the existing pipework & replace my 3 year old hot water boiler with a combi boiler. The existing pipework in the kitchen, is in any case modern copper so I queried him why he felt the need to replace that.

The 2nd plumber agreed that it wasn't strictly necessary to replace the pipework but wanted indemnifying before doing a powerflush, whilst I think he should be doing a pressure test, not trying to chuck his liabilities in my direction. Also, he claimed to have a different set of guidelines from me when it came to assessing the need for a condensing boiler or not. He reluctantly agreed that the example shown in the governmnet guidelines did match my house exactly but still grumbled about not being given the proper guidelines, and worrying what the surveyor/back office would say.

In neither case did the plumbers test the pipework.

 

[jdey]

In view of the questions that you are asking, my judgement is that you know little about plumbing in general and steel pipes in particular!

Which is why I've asked the so-called experts to explain it to me in plain English with weblink references. This is a diy website, btw.

You would also know that corrosion in pipework is not linear but concentrated in small areas where micro impurities, physical stresses or electrolytic action occur. The mode and location of pipe failure cannot therefore be assessed accurately as you seem to expect.

I'm aware of these facts. But you can check to see if there's a pre-existing problem using a pressure test.

I believe most people on a budget replace pipework when they become aware of a problem. I've asked you, however, to provide some information as to the risk of failure e.g. 10% fail in 5 years, 30% in 15 years, 50% in 25 years, 90% in 50 years etc. so that I can assess the risk.

Your responses amount to "Trust me. I'm a cowboy plumber"

 

[EliteHeat]

whilst I think he should be doing a pressure test, not trying to chuck his liabilities in my direction

I don't understand that. He has clearly discharged his responsibilities by warning you of a potential problem, put the onus onto you and is merely requesting indemnification should you choose to ignore his advice, quite rightly IMHO.