Stock market dealing

[Justin Passing]

Stock trading is the answer. Investing £1, thirty years ago, growing it at a quarter of one percent a day, you'd now have over a quarter of a billion quid.
1.0025 ^ (52 x 5 x 30)
If you only managed 0.177%, you'd still be a millionaire.

 

[Deleted member 323070]

Stock trading is the answer. Investing £1, thirty years ago, growing it at a quarter of one percent a day, you'd now have over a quarter of a billion quid.
1.0025 ^ (52 x 5 x 30)
If you only managed 0.177%, you'd still be a millionaire.

I suggest you check your maths.

Apart from the fact that stocks do not have a straightline trajectory.
They go up sometimes, they go down sometimes. Sometimes they totally collapse and you're left with nothing.


Oh, and a quarter of 1% is 0.25%. It's not 1.0025%
£1 invested 30 years ago at 0.25% and you'd be lucky to clear £100. If you put it a bank at that rate, at least you'd get cumulative interest.

 

[MNW67]

£1 invested 30 years ago at 0.25%

per day?

 

[Justin Passing]

I suggest you check your maths.

Apart from the fact that stocks do not have a straightline trajectory.
They go up sometimes, they go down sometimes. Sometimes they totally collapse and you're left with nothing.


Oh, and a quarter of 1% is 0.25%. It's not 1.0025%
£1 invested 30 years ago at 0.25% and you'd be lucky to clear £100. If you put it a bank at that rate, at least you'd get cumulative interest.

My maths is precisely correct. You misunderstood, I apologize for that, I'll go again.
Understanding of compounding is required, but this is not interest, it's from trading.

Yes @MNW67 0.25% per day. I trade most days.
--
Explaining again:
If you make quarter percent on each £1, next day you have multiplied by 1.0025. That is adding a quarter percent.
Pedantically, you're rignt, on £1 it would keep getting rounded down to £1 again. But Holding on to the stock, the share price is measured to many decmal places.
Yes I'm simplifying the numbers.
NB if you're trading, you make money if it falls, assuming you get the direction right.
0.25% on a day, is pretty trivial. You only make nothing when nothing happens.

Trading is emphatically NOT, buying and forgetting
Day traders close their position at the end of every day, so in principle they're watching all the time, the stocks would never "go to nothing". There hasn't been any collapse like that and there are "stops" and other measures you can use.
In practice, starting low, you would leave it overnight for a while.
If you close every day when the numbers become significant, you manage your risk.

Same maths, averaged, + explained better:
Yes it's not a smooth curve, some days you'd make 5%. If you're watching while the positionis open. you only lose tiny amounts when things go the worng way.
Eventualy you have enough that the growth on the gowth is significant.

On average, I'm suggestiong that at the end of a day you'd have 1.0025 x what you had the day before.
I'll start from a figure of £10000 to make it more obvious:
£10,000.00 becomes £10,025.00, that's a quarter percent
Next day it's 10,050.0625 adding £25.0625 a day
and then 10,075.18766 adding £25.12516 a day, still 0.25%.
and it's those increasing, little numbers, which become very significant.
At £10k, you're adding £25 a day
at £1m, you're adding £2500 a day.


See now?
There are lots of ways to protect your pot but you don't gain as much.
This is the daily report from a passive investment - Friday, not a special day at all. you'd adjust it from time to time. Europe will rise more in the next days as T has delayed the tariffs.

That's + 0.41% on the day. It's not positive every day, but some days are over 1%.. That Europe fund has been rising for weeks at that rate. If it goes flat/down you sell and move to something else. It's up 20% since April 7th. US ones are slower and volatile at the moment

This post is a reply to an incorrect one and is relevant to the thread discussion. If someone deletes it as has happened too often before I shall complain to the site administrator.

 

[Mottie]

Some woman I know lost nearly £50k on RBS shares years ago. I don’t know whether she held onto them or whether they picked up again as I’ve not seen her for a good few years.

 

[Deleted member 323070]

My maths is precisely correct. You misunderstood, I apologize for that, I'll go again.
Understanding of compounding is required, but this is not interest, it's from trading.

Yes @MNW67 0.25% per day. I trade most days.
--
Explaining again:
If you make quarter percent on each £1, next day you have multiplied by 1.0025. That is adding a quarter percent.
Pedantically, you're rignt, on £1 it would keep getting rounded down to £1 again. But Holding on to the stock, the share price is measured to many decmal places.
Yes I'm simplifying the numbers.
NB if you're trading, you make money if it falls, assuming you get the direction right.
0.25% on a day, is pretty trivial. You only make nothing when nothing happens.

Trading is emphatically NOT, buying and forgetting
Day traders close their position at the end of every day, so in principle they're watching all the time, the stocks would never "go to nothing". There hasn't been any collapse like that and there are "stops" and other measures you can use.
In practice, starting low, you would leave it overnight for a while.
If you close every day when the numbers become significant, you manage your risk.

Same maths, averaged, + explained better:
Yes it's not a smooth curve, some days you'd make 5%. If you're watching while the positionis open. you only lose tiny amounts when things go the worng way.
Eventualy you have enough that the growth on the gowth is significant.

On average, I'm suggestiong that at the end of a day you'd have 1.0025 x what you had the day before.
I'll start from a figure of £10000 to make it more obvious:
£10,000.00 becomes £10,025.00, that's a quarter percent
Next day it's 10,050.0625 adding £25.0625 a day
and then 10,075.18766 adding £25.12516 a day, still 0.25%.
and it's those increasing, little numbers, which become very significant.
At £10k, you're adding £25 a day
at £1m, you're adding £2500 a day.


See now?
There are lots of ways to protect your pot but you don't gain as much.
This is the daily report from a passive investment - Friday, not a special day at all. you'd adjust it from time to time. Europe will rise more in the next days as T has delayed the tariffs.

View attachment 382458
That's + 0.41% on the day. It's not positive every day, but some days are over 1%.. That Europe fund has been rising for weeks at that rate. If it goes flat/down you sell and move to something else. It's up 20% since April 7th. US ones are slower and volatile at the moment

This post is a reply to an incorrect one and is relevant to the thread discussion. If someone deletes it as has happened too often before I shall complain to the site administrator.

You would have to be extremely lucky to achieve such a return in one week, never mind over one year for thirty years.

A good fund or shares portfolio investment would be about a 7% return.
In property, a good return would be about 10% or more.
Crypto currency can give high returns but at high risk.

You're suggesting a 65% return, year on year, for thirty years is possible.
You would have to be extremely lucky to achieve that in any one week, never mind sustain it over one year.

 

[Deleted member 323070]

Some woman I know lost nearly £50k on RBS shares years ago. I don’t know whether she held onto them or whether they picked up any.

Yes, one loss can easily wipe out years of gains.

In addition gains, are taxed at 18% for basic rate payers and higher rate payers pay 24%.

In Justin Passing's mythological example, on £250,,000,000,000 the tax payable would be between £450,000,000 and £600,000,000 on realising the equity in the shares.

 

[Deleted member 323070]

Some woman I know lost nearly £50k on RBS shares years ago. I don’t know whether she held onto them or whether they picked up again as I’ve not seen her for a good few years.

RBS, after some sales of parts of its group were taken over by NatWest, who are doing OK.

I think RBS were about £1.25 in their heyday. Now NatWest are about £5.25 per share.

 

[jono_h]

My maths is precisely correct. You misunderstood, I apologize for that, I'll go again.
Understanding of compounding is required, but this is not interest, it's from trading.

Yes @MNW67 0.25% per day. I trade most days.
--
Explaining again:
If you make quarter percent on each £1, next day you have multiplied by 1.0025. That is adding a quarter percent.
Pedantically, you're rignt, on £1 it would keep getting rounded down to £1 again. But Holding on to the stock, the share price is measured to many decmal places.
Yes I'm simplifying the numbers.
NB if you're trading, you make money if it falls, assuming you get the direction right.
0.25% on a day, is pretty trivial. You only make nothing when nothing happens.

Trading is emphatically NOT, buying and forgetting
Day traders close their position at the end of every day, so in principle they're watching all the time, the stocks would never "go to nothing". There hasn't been any collapse like that and there are "stops" and other measures you can use.
In practice, starting low, you would leave it overnight for a while.
If you close every day when the numbers become significant, you manage your risk.

Same maths, averaged, + explained better:
Yes it's not a smooth curve, some days you'd make 5%. If you're watching while the positionis open. you only lose tiny amounts when things go the worng way.
Eventualy you have enough that the growth on the gowth is significant.

On average, I'm suggestiong that at the end of a day you'd have 1.0025 x what you had the day before.
I'll start from a figure of £10000 to make it more obvious:
£10,000.00 becomes £10,025.00, that's a quarter percent
Next day it's 10,050.0625 adding £25.0625 a day
and then 10,075.18766 adding £25.12516 a day, still 0.25%.
and it's those increasing, little numbers, which become very significant.
At £10k, you're adding £25 a day
at £1m, you're adding £2500 a day.


See now?
There are lots of ways to protect your pot but you don't gain as much.
This is the daily report from a passive investment - Friday, not a special day at all. you'd adjust it from time to time. Europe will rise more in the next days as T has delayed the tariffs.

View attachment 382458
That's + 0.41% on the day. It's not positive every day, but some days are over 1%.. That Europe fund has been rising for weeks at that rate. If it goes flat/down you sell and move to something else. It's up 20% since April 7th. US ones are slower and volatile at the moment

This post is a reply to an incorrect one and is relevant to the thread discussion. If someone deletes it as has happened too often before I shall complain to the site administrator.

So I start off with my £10k. How many hours do I have to sit at my PC assessing the trading charts to make my £25?

Sure, if you’ve got £100k kicking around, then it might be worth it for £250/day, but who’s got that much lying around to take a punt on day trading?

 

[noseall]

How many hours do I have to sit at my PC assessing the trading charts to make my £25?

That's what I was wondering when I read this....

Trading is emphatically NOT, buying and forgetting
Day traders close their position at the end of every day, so in principle they're watching all the time, the stocks would never "go to nothing". There hasn't been any collapse like that and there are "stops" and other measures you can use.
In practice, starting low, you would leave it overnight for a while.
If you close every day when the numbers become significant, you manage your risk.

No wonder JP is a bit wired.

 

[Justin Passing]

Some woman I know lost nearly £50k on RBS shares years ago. I don’t know whether she held onto them or whether they picked up again as I’ve not seen her for a good few years.

Not relevant to this discussion, Mots old chap. Anyone who buys shares without having a clue, gets what they deserve. With RBS I believe it turned out reasonably because HMG got involved. Plenty of companies go t*ts up.
If they bought the biggest index of top companies, the S&P 500, they would have done pretty well over the very long term, but that is not trading. I'll let you look up S&P 500 returnsbut quickly I found:
"The average annual return of the S&P 500 over the last 30 years is approximately 10.71%, which translates to about 7.98% when adjusted for inflation. This long-term growth reflects the index's performance since 1994."

But that's not going to grow a significant pension pot if you've left it late

 

[Justin Passing]

No wonder JP is a bit wired.

It's tad annoying to be told you're wrong when the teller hasn't read what was written and....

You would have to be extremely lucky to achieve such a return in one week, never mind over one year for thirty years.

A good fund or shares portfolio investment would be about a 7% return.
In property, a good return would be about 10% or more.
Crypto currency can give high returns but at high risk.

You're suggesting a 65% return, year on year, for thirty years is possible.
You would have to be extremely lucky to achieve that in any one week, never mind sustain it over one year.

No no no Tom you're talking about buying and holding. Traditional, bowler-hat-brigade "investing". I'm not.
I did however show the details for returns in an ordinary day. It's better than average at the moment because there are selectable parts of the total which are still recovering from Trump's actions. If you shift your money around, between bonds, tech stocks, India, China, whatever, you beat the "average" indicators by mile.

You're making assumptions based on what you know about, I think, but the world has changed.
I know a bit about property, I have some. It's doing ok, but I can make more a week, even a day sometimes, that I do from the properties in a year.
I've been trading for a couple of years. It is very very much more lucrative, if you learn a bit. I have a thread about it in "hobbies". I started with 20k and showed the sums accumulating on the phone bank statement which were around 300k I think, in a few months. Most people don't know how to do that, but people who do are now common as muck. Soon we'll all have phone apps doing it for us. I'm not kidding.

65% return? I have long-since lost count of how many times I've beaten that, in one day. I wish I could find a trading challenge I was watching, a year or so ago. Iirc it started at 1000 or 5000 $ and ran for 4 weeks. The winner made 27m. There was a long list in the hundreds of k's.

So I start off with my £10k. How many hours do I have to sit at my PC assessing the trading charts to make my £25?

First you learn, and practice with a "paper" account. Read everything which is recommended widely, then watch people doing it live on youtube while you see what you can do in your paper money account. SHould only need a couple of weeks. There's a small number of stocks/indices to mostly use. Nvidia, Apple, Tesla, etc, and crypto-relateds when that's running. You take heed of news etc, and then follow everyone else. It's easier at the moment because T keeps kicking the markets up or down.
Just one small example from me, Friday (I think - youcan check). Nvidia was looking pressured. Ok, so look in the premarket, that'll indicate what's likely. Nvidia looking bearish (down), Youtube pundits are usually right, nd they agree. Market opens, when it starts to move, you enter short ( you win when it falls) , leveraged at 5%. In 40 minutes on Friday it was down 3+% so for you that's 15% profit (3 x 5). CLose the position and waitThen what usually happens, unless there's some overriding thing going on, the price will come back up to where it started, more or less.. So you go LONG, set your stops , wait until you're recovered (can't lose on the trade) if you like so you don't need to worry, then f off. That makes a few % more, so perhaps 25% on the day. No I don't use "all my money".

It's like riding a bike. 80% of the difficulty is the fear, which you overcome with experience. When you're only using money you've won, that drops right down.
Some days it's a mess or nothing's happening, or it suddely turns, so have a day off. I get a negative day about once in 4 week, but only a couple of %. I remember one which I stuck at which turned out minus 5%.

OK that's all the comments here answered, for any other info please use the Hobbies section thread.

 

[Deleted member 323070]

It's tad annoying to be told you're wrong when the teller hasn't read what was written and....



No no no Tom you're talking about buying and holding. Traditional, bowler-hat-brigade "investing". I'm not.
I did however show the details for returns in an ordinary day. It's better than average at the moment because there are selectable parts of the total which are still recovering from Trump's actions. If you shift your money around, between bonds, tech stocks, India, China, whatever, you beat the "average" indicators by mile.

You're making assumptions based on what you know about, I think, but the world has changed.
I know a bit about property, I have some. It's doing ok, but I can make more a week, even a day sometimes, that I do from the properties in a year.
I've been trading for a couple of years. It is very very much more lucrative, if you learn a bit. I have a thread about it in "hobbies". I started with 20k and showed the sums accumulating on the phone bank statement which were around 300k I think, in a few months. Most people don't know how to do that, but people who do are now common as muck. Soon we'll all have phone apps doing it for us. I'm not kidding.

65% return? I have long-since lost count of how many times I've beaten that, in one day. I wish I could find a trading challenge I was watching, a year or so ago. Iirc it started at 1000 or 5000 $ and ran for 4 weeks. The winner made 27m. There was a long list in the hundreds of k's.


First you learn, and practice with a "paper" account. Read everything which is recommended widely, then watch people doing it live on youtube while you see what you can do in your paper money account. SHould only need a couple of weeks. There's a small number of stocks/indices to mostly use. Nvidia, Apple, Tesla, etc, and crypto-relateds when that's running. You take heed of news etc, and then follow everyone else. It's easier at the moment because T keeps kicking the markets up or down.
Just one small example from me, Friday (I think - youcan check). Nvidia was looking pressured. Ok, so look in the premarket, that'll indicate what's likely. Nvidia looking bearish (down), Youtube pundits are usually right, nd they agree. Market opens, when it starts to move, you enter short ( you win when it falls) , leveraged at 5%. In 40 minutes on Friday it was down 3+% so for you that's 15% profit (3 x 5). CLose the position and waitThen what usually happens, unless there's some overriding thing going on, the price will come back up to where it started, more or less.. So you go LONG, set your stops , wait until you're recovered (can't lose on the trade) if you like so you don't need to worry, then f off. That makes a few % more, so perhaps 25% on the day. No I don't use "all my money".

It's like riding a bike. 80% of the difficulty is the fear, which you overcome with experience. When you're only using money you've won, that drops right down.
Some days it's a mess or nothing's happening, or it suddely turns, so have a day off. I get a negative day about once in 4 week, but only a couple of %. I remember one which I stuck at which turned out minus 5%.

OK that's all the comments here answered, for any other info please use the Hobbies section thread.

A typical day trader might average out about 12% over a year.
Any higher goals will increase the risk relatively.
Daily trading requires significant investment in learning, watching, research, analysis and execution because timing is crucial.
Daily profits vary significantly, and there is considerable risk.
There are very few daily traders that consistently make money.

It's always easy to quote examples in hindsight and claim you made some good trades.

 

[Justin Passing]

Tom - that's wrong. Answered in the other thread, here
Gas112, I used your £400, and £100 a month which is not an unreasonable figure. Reported for trolling.

 

[Justin Passing]

From the other place: @TomWW

A typical day trader might average out about 12% over a year.
Any higher goals will increase the risk relatively.
Daily trading requires significant investment in learning, watching, research, analysis and execution because timing is crucial.
Daily profits vary significantly, and there is considerable risk.
There are very few daily traders that consistently make money.

It's always easy to quote examples in hindsight and claim you made some good trades.

So now you're an expert, on a subject you clearly knew nothing about for about 3 posts.?
I just quoted a trade which wasn't time-critical at all, apart from "from just after the open".
It took 40 minutes. I WAS sitting there, You simply don't let them run if they're losing.

You're wrong. You're quoting piffle you just found somewhere. Learn about levels, accumulation, distribution, flags, trends, volume, anchored VWAP, MACD and RSI, and the moving averages which the bots use, the Order book (level 2), stop-losses and trailing stop losses. That's about all you need.
In this thread, you'll see I've said what trades I'd be making, reported when part way through them, shown a bank statement, explained what to do, all sorts. Watch that youtube channel and realise what goes on, instead of posting rubbish.
Be better.

The reason most people lose, is that they're remarkably stupid.
The guy who posted in this thread for a while, Arbu, wasn't stupid but day after day he's do daft things, like sit in a trade for half an hour while it was losing.
Look at the "chat" in the trading platforms. You get people posting "I bought $1000 of XXX because it went up from 100 to 250 this morning but it went down to 25, what should I do?"