Strange RCD fault any ideas?

Thanks for all your replies! Thought it was an interesting one to get your brains working.... And mine! Will let you know what I find on Saturday, but any more ideas in the mean time will be appreciated.. Cheers
One further thought. Is the outside socket (into which the pump is plugged) switched? If so, do you know whether it's a SP or DP switch? Whatever, if it's switched, what happens (i.e. is there an RCD trip) if one switches the pump off with that switch? I'll keep thinking!

Kind Regards, John
 
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Could an inductive voltage spike from the motor when the switch is opened exacerbate the problem?
 
Could an inductive voltage spike from the motor when the switch is opened exacerbate the problem?
Whatever the source of the current after one pole is diconnected, there will still be a need for a continuous path through which the current can flow. Once one pole of the switch has opened, no current from the circuit will flow through one side of the RCD from the corresponding conductor. When the second pole opens, no current will through through either side of the RCD from the circuit. In between those two points in time, current from the circuit can flow through just one side of the RCD (creating an imbalance, hence possibly tripping the RCD) via the non-opened conductor, but only if there is some path to complete that circuit - which, as discussed, in the absence of any conductors to complete the circuit, probably could only be through capacitance to earth. ... at least, that's how I see it!

Kind Regards, John
 
Yes, I agree about the capacitance to earth. I'm surprised there would be enough capacitance though. Maybe there are some long cables involved.
 
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Yes, I agree about the capacitance to earth. I'm surprised there would be enough capacitance though. Maybe there are some long cables involved.
Indeed, I made the same observation - particularly since, after neutral has been opened (and L not yet opened), it is only N-E capacitance downstream of the switch that would be relevant. However, as bernard pointed out, the capacitance does not necessarily have to be in the cable - it could be from the neutral end of motor windings to earth - where there could be much more scope for a reasonable amount of capacitance than in the cable.

Kind Regards, John
 
I'd have thought that a pond pump would have enough insulation (for both electrons and pond-water) between it's windings and earth. Maybe.
 
Thanks for all your replies! Thought it was an interesting one to get your brains working.... And mine! Will let you know what I find on Saturday, but any more ideas in the mean time will be appreciated.. Cheers
One further thought. Is the outside socket (into which the pump is plugged) switched? If so, do you know whether it's a SP or DP switch? Whatever, if it's switched, what happens (i.e. is there an RCD trip) if one switches the pump off with that switch? I'll keep thinking!

Kind Regards, John

It is plugged into an external socket. I'm not sure if its sp or dp tho, I will have a look and try that on Saturday, good idea.

Cable run is only about 12m of 2.5 3core swa....
 
I'd have thought that a pond pump would have enough insulation (for both electrons and pond-water) between it's windings and earth. Maybe.
... unless, of course, the metalwork of the motor is earthed.

Kind Regards, John
 
It is plugged into an external socket. I'm not sure if its sp or dp tho, I will have a look and try that on Saturday, good idea.
I look forward to hearing what transpires! I know that it could not, in itself, be the whole answer, but I don't think that any of us have asked whether you have checked out the RCD in question, just to make sure that it's not excessively 'trigger happy'?

Kind Regards, John
 
Update!
Went there this morning and the people said over the week they had tried using the pump about 8 times, and on average it would trip on turn off about 4 times. First I meggered the circuit again. All ok. Meggered the pump. All ok. Plugged in my 2kw heat gun into the outside socket. No tripping, turned it on and off numerous times.
Plugged back in the pump, tripped every time I turned it off at the dp switch.
Checked the RCD, tripping at 30mA and 27mA on each cycle. All ok there.
Checked the DP switch using two test lamps. Neutral was breaking after phase. Tried putting the neutrals together on the switch, so only SP switching, still took out the RCD.
Getting confused, I now thought last thing to try is change the switch. Put on an identical MK 20A DP switch, tried it about 20 times, no tripping! :)
Put the megger on the old switch to earth and can't get any shorts to show up. So hopefully it's all sorted now, can't see tho what was wrong with the old switch, even tho that one was new too only 3 weeks ago!
 
Plugged in my 2kw heat gun into the outside socket. No tripping, turned it on and off numerous times.
Plugged back in the pump, tripped every time I turned it off at the dp switch. ... Checked the RCD, tripping at 30mA and 27mA on each cycle. ... Checked the DP switch using two test lamps. Neutral was breaking after phase. Tried putting the neutrals together on the switch, so only SP switching, still took out the RCD.
If you'd stopped there, I think one would be very inclined to blame the pump (although goodness knows what mechanism) - one certainly couldn't blame the sequence of DP switching.
Getting confused, I now thought last thing to try is change the switch. Put on an identical MK 20A DP switch, tried it about 20 times, no tripping! :)
Fascinating. The only thing I can think of is that there was a lot of arcing going on at the L contacts in the original (presumed 'faulty') switch, and that was introducing high frequency transients which, via the capacitance mechanism we've discussed, was resulting in an RCD trip. You're probably 'done with this' now, but I suppose it would have been interesting to try SP switching with the other ('N') contacts of the original switch, to see if those contacts were 'better' and didn't result in the problem.

Anyway, well done for having (hopefully!) sorted thye problem!

Kind Regards, John
 
I had exactly the same thing with the DP immersion heater switch in an install I was asked to troubleshoot.
I came to the conclusion that it was to do with difference of switching speeds of L & N as everything else checked out.

So I changed the DP switch and all was OK and that was a few years back.

No one (Electrician) would believe my findings or explanation.

So I`m glad you showed that article .
 
I had exactly the same thing with the DP immersion heater switch in an install I was asked to troubleshoot.
I came to the conclusion that it was to do with difference of switching speeds of L & N as everything else checked out.
Fair enough, but in flyingspark's case, that was clearly not the explanation, since the problem persisted when he changed to SP switching and only switched the L.

The possible explanation for his case which I suggested (arcing due to faulty L contacts) is the only possible mechanism that I have been able to think of so far.

Kind Regards, John
 
Sorry John, Yes I was commenting on the article quoted rather than the Ops problem reported.

I was talking at a tangent because I was so glad to see the explanation in that article being put far more eloquently than I could have done
 
Sorry John, Yes I was commenting on the article quoted rather than the Ops problem reported. I was talking at a tangent because I was so glad to see the explanation in that article being put far more eloquently than I could have done
Fair enough - but I wouldn't get too carried away into believing that, just because it can happen, what the article said is always (or even necessarily often) going to be the explanation for such a phenomenon. After all, it clearly wasn't in flyingsparks' case.

If flyingsparks had not tried changing to SP switching (without alleviating the problem), and had merely discovered that the problem went away when he changed the DP switch, he may well have concluded (incorrectly) that the mechanism described in that article, coupled presumably with the particular switching timing/sequence in the switch, had been the explanation.

Kind Regards, John
 

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