Ok. Thanks DIA. It will try that tomorrow.
Stuart Turner Monsoon Universal 4 bar twin - HUNTING
- Thread starter woodfordma
- Start date
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That's good news and bad news.
Does the pump still hunt.
The plan now is to change the settings on the valves etc and see whether you can get it to dribble again.
I closed the mains. Opened the kitchen tap. It looked like the trickle wasn't going to happen as it dripped but the went into a trckle and I momentarily swivled the tap spout and that stopped the trickle.
The test started with all the mixers in the hot position. I then moved all the mixtures to the cold position and the trickle did not restart. I know you asked to only move one mixer at a time but I figured that if I moved them all and the trickle restarted I could then narrow them down one at a time. But the trickle didn't restart.
I also put the mixers between hot and cold and still nothing. The pump continues hunting every 25 minutes or so. What does all this mean?
Thanks
The test started with all the mixers in the hot position. I then moved all the mixtures to the cold position and the trickle did not restart. I know you asked to only move one mixer at a time but I figured that if I moved them all and the trickle restarted I could then narrow them down one at a time. But the trickle didn't restart.
I also put the mixers between hot and cold and still nothing. The pump continues hunting every 25 minutes or so. What does all this mean?
Thanks
Look at wingreen's post.
www.diynot.com/forums/plumbing/intermittent-leak-from-monobloc-tap.295472/
Maybe a bit similar to your showers
www.diynot.com/forums/plumbing/intermittent-leak-from-monobloc-tap.295472/
Maybe a bit similar to your showers
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It means.
You have a leak.
A fault with a Wc.
A problem with the loft plumbing.
I would isolate all the toilet cisterns next.
I would also take the pressure of the pump and check the pre-charge. At the same time I would phone monsoon and ask whether the expansion vessel is suitable for the size of the system or if it needs a larger one.
I did isolate everything before including all wcs but hunting continued. The four bar pump is one off their largest. I'm still keen on the crossover or backflow idea but the tests just havent hit the nail on the head.
Yes I posted it earlier so its probably already a few pages back!
I think I've reached the point where I ready need to get someone in to fix the problem so I'm trying to get the plumbers who installed the system back in 2009 to see whats going on. I think they will get to the bottom of it straight away! (well hopefully)
As I say, I'm pretty sure its the mixer taps as there is no leak and its definitely not the loos. But I shall let you know the outcome so you can all say I told you so.
Tony, grateful for your offer of coming over which I would gladly have taken up although I suspect the shower mixer has something to do with and is likely to take some damage
I think I've reached the point where I ready need to get someone in to fix the problem so I'm trying to get the plumbers who installed the system back in 2009 to see whats going on. I think they will get to the bottom of it straight away! (well hopefully)
As I say, I'm pretty sure its the mixer taps as there is no leak and its definitely not the loos. But I shall let you know the outcome so you can all say I told you so.
Tony, grateful for your offer of coming over which I would gladly have taken up although I suspect the shower mixer has something to do with and is likely to take some damage
If you think the installers will find it quickly then you have a higher expectation than I would have but see what they say. It could be obvious when there.
I always keep an open mind about the cause.
All I can say is that a leak would probably be seen so that might not be the cause.
I think amongst the tests that you have done you might have found some evidence but since they are spread across so many pages and intersperced with your own thoughts for the day it may have been overlooked.
One simple test, does it still cycle if the hot inlet valve is turned off? That tests the pump non return valve.
If there was an apprentice with a good understanding of English then he could read all throught and make notes whenever something useful was seen.
I will go anywhere as long as I am paid!
Help me god! How frustrating. I had the area manager for BG around yesterday afternoon who said the the guys who plumbed in the system initially are not plumbing experts (in this field) and therefore may not be the best people to find the cause of the hunting.(not sure what type of experts they are then!)
Although he is going to try and help I really need an expert here!
Tony, in answer to your simple test. I once closed the hot inlet and allowed the pump to hunt once before I reopened the valve as I did not want to allow the pump to run dry. So yes, when I closed the hot inlet the pump did hunt.
I'm going to summarise in one very long post all the minutiae detail of the system, the history and the tests done to date. This will be my next post.
Although he is going to try and help I really need an expert here!
Tony, in answer to your simple test. I once closed the hot inlet and allowed the pump to hunt once before I reopened the valve as I did not want to allow the pump to run dry. So yes, when I closed the hot inlet the pump did hunt.
I'm going to summarise in one very long post all the minutiae detail of the system, the history and the tests done to date. This will be my next post.
In August 2009 I contracted British Gas to replumb the entire out. All the very basic but poorly done plumbing was ripped out and we started from scratch.
At the time there was only a kitchen tap, one bathroom and a couple of radiators. I told BG that we would be adding a further two bathroom. They recommend a powerful pump (ST Monsoon 4 bar nagative twin head pump) to supply the multiple bathrooms as there was insufficient pressure and flow coming in from the street.
Ignoring the CH system.
The mains comes into the cellar. On the ground floor they plumbed in pumped hot and mains cold in to the kitchen taps (separate hot and cold). On the first floor where the only bathroom existed they plumbed in mains cold to the loo, bath cold tap and sink cold tap and pumped hot into the bath hot tap and sink hot tap. They installed the pump, storage tank, hot water storage and whole CH system on the second floor in a room which was to become a bathroom. They also prepared the pipework for the planned layout of this bathroom. This system all worked fine and the pump never hunted.
By December 2010 we had finished a complete rennovation of the house and now the plumbing is as follows: On the ground floor in the kitchen hot tap is fed by pumped hot and the cold tap by mains cold. There is a dishwasher connected to the mains cold, a fridge water filter connected to mains cold and a quooker (boiling water tap) whose canister is connected to the mains cold (as it should be).
On the first floor the old bathroom now has a shower, loo and two sink mixer taps. The loo is fed by mains cold. The two sink mixer taps and shower mixer are fed by pumped hot and mains cold.
On the second floor, in the room where the pump ect is housed there is the planned bathroom. Loos is fed by pumped cold, likewise the washing machine. The sink hot tap fed by pumped hot and cold tap by pumped cold. Ditto for the two bath taps and the shower mixer is fed by pumped hot and cold.
The loft conversion is a new extension. They ran new plastic pipes, syphoning water from the copper pipes on the outflow side of the pump. In the loft bathroom there is a loo fed by pumped cold and a shower mixer fed by pumped hot and cold and a sink where the hot tap is pumped hot and the cold tap pumped cold.
Thats the entire system. Quite quickly we had teething problems such as a leak from the loft shower tray which was visible from the celing beneath and stopped once rectified.
We also had a leak from the pump flexihose outlet where the flexihose seal meets the copper pipe and so the flexihose was replaced (the leak may have occured around the same time the hunting started but this is not documented). The flexihose seal here is dry now though.
The hunting began probably between a month to a month and a half after the completion of the works. They started really far apart and gradually (in the space of a month or two) got closer together.
I suppose the first action that was taken was to replace the pump with a brand new one but like for like (replaced by ST engineer). Unfortunately the hunting continued however so it was not the pump. Stuart Turner say that for the pump to cycle the pressure needs to drop from 4 bar to 1 bar and so if this was occuring every 20 mintues a leak would become visible. There is no visible leak!
Hence I turned to this forum. I will try to summarise all the tests I have done and all the results.
Simply, when shutting off the hot outlet alone the hunting stops. Shutting the cold outlet alone and the hunting continues. I once isolated the hot INLET and after a few minutes the pump cycled so immediately opened as I did not want the pump running dry.
I have isolated every tap, wc and appliance which consumes water in the house all at once. All except for the shower mixers which can not be isolated. With everything isolated (except shower mixers) the hunting continues.
The hunting is consistently every 25 minutes (approx) and last for 5 or 6 seconds.
I have turned off the mains water coming into the house and the hunting continues.
I have turned off the mains and opened the cold kitchen tap and left mixers in the cold position and the hunting continued. There was a constant dribble from the mains (flow rate 0.1375L/minute).I also felt for warm pipes leading to the mixers but could not detect any warmth.
I have since found that moving the spout of the kitchen tap interupts and ceases the flow of the dribble. I also reported that if during the dribble I close the hot and cold outlets of the pump (and unplug it) the dribble also stops.
If whilst there is no dribble (with kitchen cold open and pump on and both outlets open) I move all the mixers from hot to cold (but not open) the dribble does not return.
I have repeated the above test (mains off, kitchen cold open) with the mixer taps in the normal position and hunting continues.
One point is that on first opening (ie after the taps has not been run for perhaps the whole day) the mixer tap all the way over to cold in the first floor bathroom the water initially warms up and then goes cold again.
I think that is most of your tests and if there are any screaming tests you think I have missed let me know. Otherwise I really need to help of a pro who has all this info above in mind when looking for the cause.
At the time there was only a kitchen tap, one bathroom and a couple of radiators. I told BG that we would be adding a further two bathroom. They recommend a powerful pump (ST Monsoon 4 bar nagative twin head pump) to supply the multiple bathrooms as there was insufficient pressure and flow coming in from the street.
Ignoring the CH system.
The mains comes into the cellar. On the ground floor they plumbed in pumped hot and mains cold in to the kitchen taps (separate hot and cold). On the first floor where the only bathroom existed they plumbed in mains cold to the loo, bath cold tap and sink cold tap and pumped hot into the bath hot tap and sink hot tap. They installed the pump, storage tank, hot water storage and whole CH system on the second floor in a room which was to become a bathroom. They also prepared the pipework for the planned layout of this bathroom. This system all worked fine and the pump never hunted.
By December 2010 we had finished a complete rennovation of the house and now the plumbing is as follows: On the ground floor in the kitchen hot tap is fed by pumped hot and the cold tap by mains cold. There is a dishwasher connected to the mains cold, a fridge water filter connected to mains cold and a quooker (boiling water tap) whose canister is connected to the mains cold (as it should be).
On the first floor the old bathroom now has a shower, loo and two sink mixer taps. The loo is fed by mains cold. The two sink mixer taps and shower mixer are fed by pumped hot and mains cold.
On the second floor, in the room where the pump ect is housed there is the planned bathroom. Loos is fed by pumped cold, likewise the washing machine. The sink hot tap fed by pumped hot and cold tap by pumped cold. Ditto for the two bath taps and the shower mixer is fed by pumped hot and cold.
The loft conversion is a new extension. They ran new plastic pipes, syphoning water from the copper pipes on the outflow side of the pump. In the loft bathroom there is a loo fed by pumped cold and a shower mixer fed by pumped hot and cold and a sink where the hot tap is pumped hot and the cold tap pumped cold.
Thats the entire system. Quite quickly we had teething problems such as a leak from the loft shower tray which was visible from the celing beneath and stopped once rectified.
We also had a leak from the pump flexihose outlet where the flexihose seal meets the copper pipe and so the flexihose was replaced (the leak may have occured around the same time the hunting started but this is not documented). The flexihose seal here is dry now though.
The hunting began probably between a month to a month and a half after the completion of the works. They started really far apart and gradually (in the space of a month or two) got closer together.
I suppose the first action that was taken was to replace the pump with a brand new one but like for like (replaced by ST engineer). Unfortunately the hunting continued however so it was not the pump. Stuart Turner say that for the pump to cycle the pressure needs to drop from 4 bar to 1 bar and so if this was occuring every 20 mintues a leak would become visible. There is no visible leak!
Hence I turned to this forum. I will try to summarise all the tests I have done and all the results.
Simply, when shutting off the hot outlet alone the hunting stops. Shutting the cold outlet alone and the hunting continues. I once isolated the hot INLET and after a few minutes the pump cycled so immediately opened as I did not want the pump running dry.
I have isolated every tap, wc and appliance which consumes water in the house all at once. All except for the shower mixers which can not be isolated. With everything isolated (except shower mixers) the hunting continues.
The hunting is consistently every 25 minutes (approx) and last for 5 or 6 seconds.
I have turned off the mains water coming into the house and the hunting continues.
I have turned off the mains and opened the cold kitchen tap and left mixers in the cold position and the hunting continued. There was a constant dribble from the mains (flow rate 0.1375L/minute).I also felt for warm pipes leading to the mixers but could not detect any warmth.
I have since found that moving the spout of the kitchen tap interupts and ceases the flow of the dribble. I also reported that if during the dribble I close the hot and cold outlets of the pump (and unplug it) the dribble also stops.
If whilst there is no dribble (with kitchen cold open and pump on and both outlets open) I move all the mixers from hot to cold (but not open) the dribble does not return.
I have repeated the above test (mains off, kitchen cold open) with the mixer taps in the normal position and hunting continues.
One point is that on first opening (ie after the taps has not been run for perhaps the whole day) the mixer tap all the way over to cold in the first floor bathroom the water initially warms up and then goes cold again.
I think that is most of your tests and if there are any screaming tests you think I have missed let me know. Otherwise I really need to help of a pro who has all this info above in mind when looking for the cause.
In August 2009 I contracted British Gas to replumb the entire house. All the very basic but poorly done plumbing was ripped out and we started from scratch.
At the time there was only a kitchen tap, one bathroom and a couple of radiators. I told BG that we would be adding a further two bathrooms. They recommended a powerful pump (ST Monsoon 4 bar nagative twin head pump) to supply the multiple bathrooms as there was insufficient pressure and flow coming in from the street for a megaflow system.
Ignoring the CH system.
The mains comes into the cellar. On the ground floor they plumbed in pumped hot and mains cold in to the kitchen taps (separate hot and cold). On the first floor where the only bathroom existed they plumbed in mains cold to the loo, bath cold tap and sink cold tap and pumped hot into the bath hot tap and sink hot tap. They installed the pump, storage tank, hot water storage and whole CH system on the second floor in a room which was to become a bathroom. They also prepared the pipework for the planned layout of this bathroom. This system all worked fine and the pump never hunted.
By December 2010 we had finished a complete rennovation of the house and now the plumbing is as follows: On the ground floor in the kitchen hot tap is fed by pumped hot and the cold tap by mains cold. There is a dishwasher connected to the mains cold, a fridge water filter connected to mains cold and a quooker (boiling water tap) whose canister is connected to the mains cold (as it should be).
On the first floor the old bathroom now has a shower, loo and two sink mixer taps. The loo is fed by mains cold. The two sink mixer taps and shower mixer are fed by pumped hot and mains cold.
On the second floor, in the room where the pump ect is housed there is the bathroom which was planned for by BG. The Loo is fed by pumped cold, likewise the washing machine. The sink hot tap fed by pumped hot and cold tap by pumped cold. Ditto for the bath taps and the shower mixer is fed by pumped hot and cold.
The loft conversion is a new extension. They ran new plastic pipes, syphoning water from the copper pipes on the outflow side of the pump. In the loft bathroom there is a loo fed by pumped cold and a shower mixer fed by pumped hot and cold and a sink where the hot tap is pumped hot and the cold tap pumped cold.
Thats the entire system. Quite quickly we had teething problems such as a leak from the loft shower tray which was visible from the celing beneath and stopped once rectified.
We also had a leak from the pump flexihose outlet where the flexihose seal meets the copper pipe and so the flexihose was replaced (the leak may have occured around the same time the hunting started but this is not documented). The flexihose seal here is dry now though.
The hunting began probably between a month to a month and a half after the completion of the works. They started really far apart and gradually (in the space of a month or two) got closer together.
I suppose the first action that was taken was to replace the pump with a brand new one but like for like (replaced by ST engineer). Unfortunately the hunting continued however so it was not the pump. Stuart Turner say that for the pump to cycle the pressure needs to drop from 4 bar to 1 bar and so if this was occuring every 20 mintues a leak would become visible. There is no visible leak!
Hence I turned to this forum. I will try to summarise all the tests I have done and all the results.
Simply, when shutting off the hot outlet alone the hunting stops. Shutting the cold outlet alone and the hunting continues. I once isolated the hot INLET and after a few minutes the pump cycled so immediately opened as I did not want the pump running dry.
I have isolated every tap, wc and appliance which consumes water in the house all at once. All except for the shower mixers which can not be isolated. With everything isolated (except shower mixers) the hunting continues.
The hunting is consistently every 25 minutes (approx) and last for 5 or 6 seconds.
I have turned off the mains water coming into the house and the hunting continues.
I have turned off the mains and opened the cold kitchen tap and left mixers in the cold position and the hunting continued. There was a constant dribble from the mains (flow rate 0.1375L/minute).I also felt for warm pipes leading to the mixers but could not detect any warmth.
I have since found that moving the spout of the kitchen tap interupts and ceases the flow of the dribble. I also reported that if during the dribble I close the hot and cold outlets of the pump (and unplug it) the dribble also stops.
If whilst there is no dribble (with kitchen cold open and pump on and both outlets open) I move all the mixers from hot to cold (but not open) the dribble does not return.
I have repeated the above test (mains off, kitchen cold open) with the mixer taps in the normal position and hunting continues.
One point is that on first opening the mixer tap (ie after the mixer taps have not been run for a few hours) all the way over on the cold side in the first floor bathroom the water initially warms up and then goes cold again.
I think that is most of your tests and if there are any screaming tests you think I have missed let me know. Otherwise I really need to help of a pro who has all this info above in mind when looking for the cause.
At the time there was only a kitchen tap, one bathroom and a couple of radiators. I told BG that we would be adding a further two bathrooms. They recommended a powerful pump (ST Monsoon 4 bar nagative twin head pump) to supply the multiple bathrooms as there was insufficient pressure and flow coming in from the street for a megaflow system.
Ignoring the CH system.
The mains comes into the cellar. On the ground floor they plumbed in pumped hot and mains cold in to the kitchen taps (separate hot and cold). On the first floor where the only bathroom existed they plumbed in mains cold to the loo, bath cold tap and sink cold tap and pumped hot into the bath hot tap and sink hot tap. They installed the pump, storage tank, hot water storage and whole CH system on the second floor in a room which was to become a bathroom. They also prepared the pipework for the planned layout of this bathroom. This system all worked fine and the pump never hunted.
By December 2010 we had finished a complete rennovation of the house and now the plumbing is as follows: On the ground floor in the kitchen hot tap is fed by pumped hot and the cold tap by mains cold. There is a dishwasher connected to the mains cold, a fridge water filter connected to mains cold and a quooker (boiling water tap) whose canister is connected to the mains cold (as it should be).
On the first floor the old bathroom now has a shower, loo and two sink mixer taps. The loo is fed by mains cold. The two sink mixer taps and shower mixer are fed by pumped hot and mains cold.
On the second floor, in the room where the pump ect is housed there is the bathroom which was planned for by BG. The Loo is fed by pumped cold, likewise the washing machine. The sink hot tap fed by pumped hot and cold tap by pumped cold. Ditto for the bath taps and the shower mixer is fed by pumped hot and cold.
The loft conversion is a new extension. They ran new plastic pipes, syphoning water from the copper pipes on the outflow side of the pump. In the loft bathroom there is a loo fed by pumped cold and a shower mixer fed by pumped hot and cold and a sink where the hot tap is pumped hot and the cold tap pumped cold.
Thats the entire system. Quite quickly we had teething problems such as a leak from the loft shower tray which was visible from the celing beneath and stopped once rectified.
We also had a leak from the pump flexihose outlet where the flexihose seal meets the copper pipe and so the flexihose was replaced (the leak may have occured around the same time the hunting started but this is not documented). The flexihose seal here is dry now though.
The hunting began probably between a month to a month and a half after the completion of the works. They started really far apart and gradually (in the space of a month or two) got closer together.
I suppose the first action that was taken was to replace the pump with a brand new one but like for like (replaced by ST engineer). Unfortunately the hunting continued however so it was not the pump. Stuart Turner say that for the pump to cycle the pressure needs to drop from 4 bar to 1 bar and so if this was occuring every 20 mintues a leak would become visible. There is no visible leak!
Hence I turned to this forum. I will try to summarise all the tests I have done and all the results.
Simply, when shutting off the hot outlet alone the hunting stops. Shutting the cold outlet alone and the hunting continues. I once isolated the hot INLET and after a few minutes the pump cycled so immediately opened as I did not want the pump running dry.
I have isolated every tap, wc and appliance which consumes water in the house all at once. All except for the shower mixers which can not be isolated. With everything isolated (except shower mixers) the hunting continues.
The hunting is consistently every 25 minutes (approx) and last for 5 or 6 seconds.
I have turned off the mains water coming into the house and the hunting continues.
I have turned off the mains and opened the cold kitchen tap and left mixers in the cold position and the hunting continued. There was a constant dribble from the mains (flow rate 0.1375L/minute).I also felt for warm pipes leading to the mixers but could not detect any warmth.
I have since found that moving the spout of the kitchen tap interupts and ceases the flow of the dribble. I also reported that if during the dribble I close the hot and cold outlets of the pump (and unplug it) the dribble also stops.
If whilst there is no dribble (with kitchen cold open and pump on and both outlets open) I move all the mixers from hot to cold (but not open) the dribble does not return.
I have repeated the above test (mains off, kitchen cold open) with the mixer taps in the normal position and hunting continues.
One point is that on first opening the mixer tap (ie after the mixer taps have not been run for a few hours) all the way over on the cold side in the first floor bathroom the water initially warms up and then goes cold again.
I think that is most of your tests and if there are any screaming tests you think I have missed let me know. Otherwise I really need to help of a pro who has all this info above in mind when looking for the cause.
I rewrote the long bit above to correct typos and hopefully clarify things so please ignore the first long post.
You should have just used the edit facility to correct it.
You still can edit it and delete the old and paste the new.
There is one test which would help us to assimilate your situation.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Use some hot water until pump runs. Turn off hot tap.
Close mains water valve and open cold tap in kitchen.
Then run some hot at a basin slowly into a measuring jug to see what volume needs to be taken to start the pump! Then tell us!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Somewhere you will have an expansion vessel after the pump. I know questions have been asked about it.
a. Has it been changed?
b. What volume is it?
c. Has the air precharge pressure been measured WITH the hot taps open and hot supply off ?
Tony
You still can edit it and delete the old and paste the new.
There is one test which would help us to assimilate your situation.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Use some hot water until pump runs. Turn off hot tap.
Close mains water valve and open cold tap in kitchen.
Then run some hot at a basin slowly into a measuring jug to see what volume needs to be taken to start the pump! Then tell us!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Somewhere you will have an expansion vessel after the pump. I know questions have been asked about it.
a. Has it been changed?
b. What volume is it?
c. Has the air precharge pressure been measured WITH the hot taps open and hot supply off ?
Tony
Some where in this sentence must lie the problem.
Mixing pumped hot and mains cold is not a good idea. You say the mains pressure to the house is poor. May be the pumped hot pressure is stronger than the cold mains, with a faulty shower mixer valve (or even one or both of the basin mixer taps) back pressure is occurring. No idea where the water is going, that we can't work out. So to eliminate this you must get someone to isolate the shower with isolation valves, at least. I would have thought the two mixer valves would have isolating valves under the basin! vanity unit!
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