Stupid Pneumatic Delay Switches

[bigalxyz]

Thanks. Yeah that’s what I suspected. So does this mean I can only use mechanical switches here? (or just join the wires, blank off the back box and have the lights on 24/7?)

 

[securespark]

No, there are some Danlers switches that were linked to earlier. They are "two wire" time delay switches like the pneumatic ones, but an electronic version rather than electro- mechanical.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/DNTLSW10ILM.html

You may need capacitors depending on the load.

 

[bigalxyz]

No, there are some Danlers switches that were linked to earlier. They are "two wire" time delay switches like the pneumatic ones, but an electronic version rather than electro- mechanical.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/DNTLSW10ILM.html

You may need capacitors depending on the load.

ahhhh thank you…I’m a bit slow on the uptake I think. I’ll check them out.

 

[securespark]

Sorry bigal,

I posted my stuff without reading all the posts....fatal!

It would seem these Danlers illuminated switches don't work well with LEDs. Maybe ring Danlers Tech Department and discuss your installation with them. Sunray suggests taking out the switches and leaving them on 24/7.

Read below and all of Sunray's other posts in this thread.

and they require a minimum load, no use with LED.

I worked on a staircase a number of times over the years with 7 pneumatic switches wired in parallel life expectancy 2-3 years, origionally they were controlling about 10 bulkheads. One by one they failed and were replaced with illuminated Danlers. Then the bulkheads were changed to either 2D or 4D and each light fitting had 1 or 2 capacitors added to convince the switches to work (as advised in MI, I think it equated to 2 per switch or there abouts). Then the flou's were changed to LED and the system never did work properly and the LEDs glowed, no matter how many caps were added.

The calculations went roughly: Predicted ife expectancy of say 10 years, cost £20, labour = £50 = £7 per year X 7switches = £49 per year + The Danlars consume~0.3W =£3 p/y... Cost of running 10X 4W leds 24/365 per year = roughly the same, with their full time handyman replacing as required rather than calling in contractors. No brainer, they paid us to replace switches with metal blanks, power the switch wiring down and split the lights onto 2 different phases.

No brainer, and the residents liked the stairwell being constantly lit.

 

[bigalxyz]

There seem to be some cheap PIR switches on Amazon that don’t need a neutral. I’m tempted to buy one and try it out, just as an experiment.

 

[JohnW2]

It would seem these Danlers illuminated switches don't work well with LEDs. Maybe ring Danlers Tech Department and discuss your installation with them. Sunray suggests taking out the switches and leaving them on 24/7. .... Read below and all of Sunray's other posts in this thread.

I assumed that it was because he had read all of Sunray's posts that he wrote:

Thanks. Yeah that’s what I suspected. So does this mean I can only use mechanical switches here? (or just join the wires, blank off the back box and have the lights on 24/7?)

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

No, there are some Danlers switches that were linked to earlier. They are "two wire" time delay switches like the pneumatic ones, but an electronic version rather than electro- mechanical.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/DNTLSW10ILM.html

You may need capacitors depending on the load.

Are they not powered, using a rechargeable battery for the times when they switched on? Might there be a limit to how many of these switches can be wired in parallel and still have them able to charge the battery?

 

[JohnW2]

Are they not powered, using a rechargeable battery for the times when they switched on? Might there be a limit to how many of these switches can be wired in parallel and still have them able to charge the battery?

I don't think I've seen one that does that - they seem to just rely on a very small current through the load to keep them powered when 'switched off'. However, maybe I'm wrong.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I don't think I've seen one that does that - they seem to just rely on a very small current through the load to keep them powered when 'switched off'. However, maybe I'm wrong.

...ans when they are switched on/ shorted, where do they derive the power to run?

 

[JohnW2]

...ans when they are switched on/ shorted, where do they derive the power to run?

'The same place', I assume - i.e. they derive power from the current flowing in the L - a tiny current when 'off', and much larger current when 'on'. However, as I said, I may be wrong. What I can say is that the (albeit few) 'no neutral' ones I have dissected definitely did not contain any batteries.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

'The same place', I assume - i.e. they derive power from the current flowing in the L - a tiny current when 'off', and much larger current when 'on'. However, as I said, I may be wrong. What I can say is that the (albeit few) 'no neutral' ones I have dissected definitely did not contain any batteries.

Kind Regards, John

I've not come across many, but all of those I have, have one of those 3.6v rechargeables which you used to see on PC motherboards. The only other way, would be to create some resistance when on and derive the voltage to operate from that, but it would be an unreliable way to operate, with multiple switches in parallel.

 

[JohnW2]

I've not come across many, but all of those I have, have one of those 3.6v rechargeables which you used to see on PC motherboards.

Fair enough but, as I said, and although I've only taken few apart, I've never seen that.

The only other way, would be to create some resistance when on and derive the voltage to operate from that ...

Indeed so - that's what I was suggesting. However, if that's how it's done, it's 'worse' than that, since it also has to be able to derive enough voltage from the (tiny) L current when 'off' - which would make it difficult to select a value of that 'some resistance' that would be appropriate in both the 'on' and 'off' states. However, I can think of no 'third' method!

... but it would be an unreliable way to operate, with multiple switches in parallel.

It would, and 'multiple switches (of this type) in parallel' is not something of which I personally have any experience. Maybe that was at least part of Sunray's 'problem'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

It would, and 'multiple switches (of this type) in parallel' is not something of which I personally have any experience. Maybe that was at least part of Sunray's 'problem'?

Kind Regards, John

7 worked percectly with incandescent bulbs
7 worked ok with 2D fittings with loads of caps across the lights
7 did not work with LEDs even with loads more caps,
neither did 1 did work with LEDs even with loads more caps after we disconnected 6 switches.
Basically we were unable to stop the LEDs glowing.

Jst looked at the spec sheets the Danlers they are shown as requiring a minimum load of 40W, I seem to remember 1 or 2 caps for 25/15W but don't see that in there now.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

7 did not work with LEDs even with loads more caps,
neither did 1 did work with LEDs even with loads more caps after we disconnected 6 switches.
Basically we were unable to stop the LEDs glowing.

The only viable way to use LED's then with such switches, would be to use at least one incandescent lamp as a load then?

Or have them on all the time or perhaps on a dusk 'till dawn switch.

 

[JohnW2]

Jst looked at the spec sheets the Danlers they are shown as requiring a minimum load of 40W, I seem to remember 1 or 2 caps for 25/15W but don't see that in there now.

The only viable way to use LED's then with such switches, would be to use at least one incandescent lamp as a load then?

I would think that should work.

However, as I wrote to Sunray before, I would think that a large enough capacitor ought to work just as well as an incandescent bulb/lamp. By my reckoning, a 2.4 μF capacitor should have about the same impedance (about 1.32 kΩ, at 50Hz) as a 40 W incandescent bulb/lamp, so one might expect a capacitor that size, or larger, to work (at least with just one switch).

Kind Regards, John