subsidence ?

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Have been slowly modernising a 1930's semi. I am becoming increasingly worried about cracks (about 2mm wide) that were in the property when we moved in 2 years ago. They are ceiling cracks but do run to the walls. I cant say for certain if they have increased in the 2 years, but cracks I have repaired and decorated are begining to re-appear. :(

When I had the exterior re-rendered, I was horrified to see a very large external crack underneath the bathroom window running to the soil pipe. The builder assured me that it wasnt subsidence but movement when UPVC windows were installed a few years ago. He checked that lintels were all in place.

My question is should I get a structural surveyor to check the property and how much is that likely to cost in the Outer London area. Or should I just go to my Insurers. I am worried that if I do contact them and it turns out not to be subsidence that it could severely affect future premiums.
 
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TheLeester said:
My question is should I get a structural surveyor to check the property and how much is that likely to cost in the Outer London area. Or should I just go to my Insurers. I am worried that if I do contact them and it turns out not to be subsidence that it could severely affect future premiums.
I don't think you'll have much choice,the insurance company will want a written report from the surveyor anyway.I shouldn't worry too much about the premiums unless you want to pay for the underpinning out of your own pocket ! A friend of mine has the front of the property underpinned and the insurance paid out £17,000,I'm not saying yours will need underpining but we have GwaiLo the 'surveyor' on this forum would be able to advise you better,watch this space !!
 
I obviously can't tell you what your problem is without doing a survey, but I am happy to give you some clues as to what to look for.

Firstly what is subsidence.....Subsidence is what occurs when support is removed from beneath foundations. This can occur for numerous reasons, for example the soil can collapse where there have been mine workings or a well, it can be eroded or desicated by water (say an underground stream), but the most common cause is drying out of shrinkable soils. There is every chance (being Greater London) that you have a clay sub soil and clay is a shrinkable soil.

Secondly how do you identify subsidence.....This requires both knowledge (knowing what clues to look for) and experience (the clues are just that, they aren't definitive). Cracks caused by subsidence tend to appear low down on the walls and the cracks will tend to go through the whole wall (not just be apparent internally or externally). As the movement progresses the crack will widen and get longer going upwards through the wall. The crack will be wider at the bottom than at the top and will often go through the bricks rather than follows the mortar line.

Thirdly, is subsidence a problem...More often than not, No. Subsidence is a bit like asbestos....people here the term and envisage disaster. Buildings move all of the time. The movements are induced by changes in the temparature of materials or by changes in the water content of materials. Movement, including soil movement, is frequently seasonal and cracks will open and close as the seasons change. Movement only becomes a problem when it is progressive and ongoing.....that is it keeps going in one direction and doesn't stop.

You have described cracks in your ceiling. It is unlikely that they are caused by subsidence. More likely they are just cracks in an old lath and plaster ceiling (which may need to be replaced or boarded over if it is sounding hollow) or movement of the plasterboards (which will produce cracks in straight lines and is purely aesthetic).

Cracks of 2mm wouldn't normally worry me. If they get to 4mm it may be worthwhile having a Chartered Building Surveyor take a look. Measuring the width of a crack is easy with a crack guage which you can buy here for less than £3.00 see here Just click on the products button and scroll down.

The crack in the wall is more worrying. The "Upvc Windows" doesn't add up. If the original windows were not load bearing then removing them would not cause movement. If they were and lintels were installed when the new windows were then any settlement would be above the window. Quite commonly leaky drains cause the opposite of subsidence, which is called heave. In this case the extra moisture getting into the soil causes it to swell and lift the foundation. On the surface it sounds like this may be a possibility. The cure is to fix the leak and repair the damage to the wall in an appropriate way.

Charges made by surveyors vary considerably. For this sort of work I generally charge £250.00 to visit sites within reasonable travelling distance of my office, carry out an initial appraisal of a problem, make brief recommendations and confirm them in a letter. Although that is all that is required in many cases, some require further more detailed investigation and once I have seen the problem I am better able to advise what those things might cost. Most buildings insurance policies allow you to claim the cost of professional services related to a claim.

However, I have quite low overheads for a surveyor, so I would say that anything from £250.00 to £500.00 is probably reasonable. An inspection like this is unpredictable and I would allow half a day for travel, inspecting and writing a brief report. I certainly charge more than the £250.00 if it involves anything more than half an hours drive.
 
Thanks for your replies. I appreciate problems like this are never easily answered without seeing for yourself. The thing with the ceiling cracks is that they do not follow a straight line and therefore are going across the lathes. The other intriguing aspect is that the same shape and size of crack appears in exactly the same corner of the upstairs bedroom and the dining room below it ! One thing I do suspect is probably something to do with temperature. I have never lived in such a noisy house. At nighttime if it has been hot in the day or is getting colder during the winter, the timber rafters are in a constant flux making loads of noise as the expand and contract. It was quite disconcerting to begin with.

I think overrall for own peace of mind I will contact my insurers and get them to arrange a survey. I guess it will be better to sort out before planning any extension work. Thanks again for the replies.
 
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TheLeester said:
At nighttime if it has been hot in the day or is getting colder during the winter, the timber rafters are in a constant flux making loads of noise as the expand and contract.
Sounds like your roof haven't got any ventilation via soffit etc....
 
The roof is pretty well ventilated. There are soffits all around and I feel draught when in the loft. It could be that the insulation is not very good and so excessive heat is being transferred from the house to the loftspace.

Out of interest what sort of size gap should there be between the sofits and roof ?
 
TheLeester said:
Out of interest what sort of size gap should there be between the sofits and roof ?
Not quite sure what you mean,if you're talking about the ceiling insulation to the roof then it should sloped to roof angle with 100mm air flow gap.

Also see this for soffit vent information.
 
I think I misunderstood you originally masona. My sofits are wood and have no vents at all. However they have not been fitted completely flush to the wall thus leaving a gap and I thought that this was sufficient venting. The insulation I meant was the stuff between the beams of the loft floor.

Do you think I need to look at putting some vents in as well ? I must admit I would love to have a quieter loftspace. Very scary at 3am to keep hearing pinging noises. Perhaps thats whats feeding my paranoia regarding subsidence. I need a good nights sleep :eek:
 
TheLeester said:
My sofits are wood and have no vents at all. However they have not been fitted completely flush to the wall thus leaving a gap and I thought that this was sufficient venting.
As long your gap is 10mm all the way along the soffit then that's okay.Am'I thinking you have a soffit board flush to the wall with some gap or badly fitted then that's no good.Just for understanding the soffit is the board underneath and the facisa is the front side.If you can't put soffit vent in then use roof tiles vent with roofing felt cut out correctly or ridge tiles vent.Does sounds like to me the timber need to breathe,like you say the surveyor will be able to help you.
 
To be honest if you can feel a good draught in the loft that is probably fine.

As I said earlier, the cracks in the ceilings are probably due to the age of the lathe and plaster ceilings (which at 70-80 years old must be nearing the end of thier practical life).

The only thing you have described which would concern me even slightly would be the crack in the bathroom wall.

masona, it sounds to me as if he has open eaves, pretty typical for the period and very good ventilation.
 
GwaiLo said:
To be honest if you can feel a good draught in the loft that is probably fine.
I was thinking maybe the draught is coming up from the loft trap ? which can be misleading sometime but I maybe wrong.
TheLeester said:
There are soffits all around and I feel draught when in the loft.
When you're in the loft put the loft trap down (take your phone with you if you want to come back down :LOL:) and can you see daylight round the edge ?
 
as a surveyor i agree with the original surveyors opinion, unlikely this property has suffered any subsidence. the latter starts from the ground and works up. daft as it might sound - the elevation your bathroom & lounge are on- does it face the rising sun ?. you may have localised thermal expansion,or lateral movement. the heat absorbed during the day/ summer months into the brick follows a least line of resistence movement pattern, not unusual around openings that are not directly under any load- which otherwise resists. however, thermal movement generally occurs on walls having a long run without any break returns- certainly not common on semi-detached property. any surveyor invited to site will justify his fee, at this stage i see no merit in bringing one in. i would fill the movement cracks and simply keep an eye on them over the next few years. check your floor level just to make sure the chamber joists have not dropped, you may have localised natural settlement, nothing to worry about- simply make good the scars. your ceiling problem has been explained as not serious- i agree, l & p often develop crazed cracking, understud with p/board skimmed up, it should look really good.
 
aussiemike said:
i would fill the movement cracks and simply keep an eye on them over the next few years.
What I 've seen before they put a small glass or wall tile across the joint with tile adhesive to see if the glass crack to indicate a movement in the wall.
 
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:23 pm Post Subject:

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aussiemike wrote:
i would fill the movement cracks and simply keep an eye on them over the next few years.

What I 've seen before they put a small glass or wall tile across the joint with tile adhesive to see if the glass crack to indicate a movement in the wall.

Commonly a thin glass sliver such as a microscope slide is epoxy glued either end to bridge the gap.

being brittle it will indicate quite clearly both the magnitude and direction of any movement.
 

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