SWA, sockets, and freedom from RCDs

[ban-all-sheds]

As far as is reasonably practicable.

And who decides how far that is?

You?

The above examples are just silly

They aren't, but they are making the people who expect retailers to warn their customers about all the relevant laws, rules & regulations look silly.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

It is interesting to note that they do not have any notices in the shop advising consumers of their legal requirements WRT Part P or BR.

If you buy bricks and cement do they advise you of your legal requirements WRT Part A, Part B, Part C etc, the Planning Act, the Party Wall etc Act....?

Ah, yet again, another example of selective quoting out of context. I think you're missing the point. If only you had quoted the sentence preceeding that -

"Its not really their interest to correctly inform you as to what you are doing, they are just selling 'stuff' for a profit, what you do with it is your problem and liability should it end in flames."

OK.

Its not really their interest to correctly inform you as to what you are doing, they are just selling 'stuff' for a profit, what you do with it is your problem and liability should it end in flames.

Over the past few weeks i have had cause to go into the big Orange warehouse of tat as well as wickes. It is interesting to note that they do not have any notices in the shop advising consumers of their legal requirements WRT Part P or BR.

If you buy bricks and cement do they advise you of your legal requirements WRT Part A, Part B, Part C etc, the Planning Act, the Party Wall etc Act....?

Not that im aware, but thats exactly my point. They are selling 'items', it is not helpful to them to inform punters of theri obligations, it doesn't help their sales.

Don't you remember the last time we discussed this?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Hmm, maybe you confused this 'DIY Electrical forum' for 'im a star trek fan and proud' forum. All the above may be of great interest to an A level physics student, but not many others.

Well I'm not a Star Trek fan, and never have been, and it's a long time since I was an A-level physics student, but I found it amusing.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Read my post again!

All the examples given have many varied uses, but a consumer unit does not.

I specifically used the example of a consumer unit as they're not much likely to be used for anything else especially when bought from a DIY store selling the item for home improvements.

What about windows? Are they likely to be used for anything else when bought from a DIY store?

WCs?

Recessed downlighters?

Paving slabs?

If shops like that are going to sell something which the general public cannot install by law without spending a ridiculous amount of money on LABC fees then the purchaser should be warned.

Road tax and insurance aren't cheap either, and the general public cannot legally use private motor vehicles without them - do you expect car dealers to warn people of that?

If not, why not?

They do. If you purchase a new vehicle from a reputable dealer, he will waqnt to see a cover note for the vehicle before you drive it off the forecourt.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

As far as is reasonably practicable.

And who decides how far that is?

You?

Nope

The above examples are just silly

They aren't, but they are making the people who expect retailers to warn their customers about all the relevant laws, rules & regulations look silly.

they are.
Who is expecting the retailers to do as you suggest? im not

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hmm, maybe you confused this 'DIY Electrical forum' for 'im a star trek fan and proud' forum. All the above may be of great interest to an A level physics student, but not many others.

Well I'm not a Star Trek fan, and never have been, and it's a long time since I was an A-level physics student, but I found it amusing.

i dont believe you, i bet your sat there with your prosthetic ears on right now munching away on pot noodles.

 

[Paul_C]

What have bricks got to do with anything?

Because the same principle applies. You seem to be arguing that "Big Orange" and the other stores should be warning their customers about the possible legal issues surrounding the installation of a consumer unit. So why should they not also warn customers about similar legalities for building a wall?

Why should they be warning customers about compliance with one part of the building regulations but not the other parts?

I take your point that 95% of the consumer units they sell are likely to be for installation in a dwelling and subject to Part P, whereas maybe only 50% of the bricks they sell are for projects which are subject to other parts of the building regulations. But that would just bring down the decision of whether to inform customers about possible legal ramifications to some arbitrary percentage of sales, and a percentage which would be pure guesswork anyway since they don't ask customers their intended use of the materials.

What proportion of the toilets and bathtubs they sell would you estimate are subject to building regulations upon their installation? Should warnings about the legal issues be provided with these?

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

What have bricks got to do with anything?

Because the same principle applies. You seem to be arguing that "Big Orange" and the other stores should be warning their customers about the possible legal issues surrounding the installation of a consumer unit.

No im not, go back and read through the whole thread. Read it slowly and carefully.

So why should they not also warn customers about similar legalities for building a wall?

Why should they be warning customers about compliance with one part of the building regulations but not the other parts?

I take your point that 95% of the consumer units they sell are likely to be for installation in a dwelling and subject to Part P, whereas maybe only 50% of the bricks they sell are for projects which are subject to other parts of the building regulations. But that would just bring down the decision of whether to inform customers about possible legal ramifications to some arbitrary percentage of sales, and a percentage which would be pure guesswork anyway since they don't ask customers their intended use of the materials.

What proportion of the toilets and bathtubs they sell would you estimate are subject to building regulations upon their installation? Should warnings about the legal issues be provided with these?

you need to look closer as to who is saying what within this thread. There are more posters in this thread than just me. Dont quote bits of something i said then mash that up with a suggestion by somebody else to portray something that nobody said

 

[Paul_C]

No im not, go back and read through the whole thread. Read it slowly and carefully.

Fair enough, you haven't stated explicitly that they should be providing warnings, but this comment rather hinted that you were questioning whether they should be:

Its not really their interest to correctly inform you as to what you are doing, they are just selling 'stuff' for a profit, what you do with it is your problem and liability should it end in flames.

Over the past few weeks i have had cause to go into the big Orange warehouse of tat as well as wickes. It is interesting to note that they do not have any notices in the shop advising consumers of their legal requirements WRT Part P or BR. You only get that in the poxy instruction leaflet contained within the box. By the time you read that, the shed has already taken your money and the monkey is off their back.

Sorry if I'm reading some implication into your comment which was not intended. Perhaps you could clarify: Do you believe that they should provide any sort of warnings about compliance with building regulations for any of the products they sell, and if so which?

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Fair dos, for clarification:-

im not implying anything ( other than BAS is a closet trekkie )
it was just a point of interest that the suppliers do nothing toward informing the purchaser of any obligations they may have in the course of using products sold to them.

FWIW, as all the electrical products are generally sold on one isle, the sheds could do something to promote awareness of regs etc. by placing a simple notice at either end of the isle.
However, im not holding my breath

note the use of the word 'could' as opposed to 'should'

Also, if you go back to my original post in this thread, it can be seen that my opening comment was in regard to incorrect terminology in use by the sheds. The bit about lack of information PRIOR to purchase was in relation to these comments:-

"Are you sure its the manufacturer's who are getting the electrical terminology wrong?

im not certain, but i think its more likely that its the DIY stores who do not have good grasp on the situation as a whole.

Its not really their interest to correctly inform you as to what you are doing, they are just selling 'stuff' for a profit, what you do with it is your problem and liability should it end in flames. "

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[Paul_C]

Fair dos, for clarification:-

im not implying anything ( other than BAS is a closet trekkie )
it was just a point of interest that the suppliers do nothing toward informing the purchaser of any obligations they may have in the course of using products sold to them.

Fair enough then.

I wonder just how much effect it would have in practice though. Assuming that somebody has, until the point of walking into the store, not been aware of the existence of Part P (or any other part of the building regulations), just how likely is it to make him change his mind about doing the job? Maybe a few people will be deterred, but frankly I think the majority will either ignore it from the outset, or at least just carry on regardless after making inquiries of their local council and discovering the extortionate nature of the notification fees.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Fair dos, for clarification:-

im not implying anything ( other than BAS is a closet trekkie )
it was just a point of interest that the suppliers do nothing toward informing the purchaser of any obligations they may have in the course of using products sold to them.

Fair enough then.

I wonder just how much effect it would have in practice though. Assuming that somebody has, until the point of walking into the store, not been aware of the existence of Part P (or any other part of the building regulations), just how likely is it to make him change his mind about doing the job? Maybe a few people will be deterred, but frankly I think the majority will either ignore it from the outset, or at least just carry on regardless after making inquiries of their local council and discovering the extortionate nature of the notification fees.

Maybe not much, but it would be a step in the right direction and perhaps lead to a few less botched jobs. There will always be people who carry on regardless ( comparisions could be drawn to using a phone whilst driving, people still do it) but some people may be enlightened and seek the righteous path (my brother, amen )

 

[mfarrow]

BAS, again you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Please note my emphasis of DIY and home improvement stores selling this merchandise.

What about windows? Are they likely to be used for anything else when bought from a DIY store?

You can do a lot in respect to repairs to windows without needing notification. If you are talking about a complete unit, many will replace their worn windows in sheds, garages and outbuildings without requiring notification. Installing a consumer unit DIY in ones own home or a building fed from the home installation, without notification, infringes the regulations every time.

WCs?

Again, most of them are bought as replacements, not new builds or conversions. Replacing a toilet does not require notification. Installing a consumer unit DIY in ones own home or a building fed from the home installation, without notification, infringes the regulations every time.

Recessed downlighters?

People should be aware of the regulations I agree, but they do not forbid folk installing them. Also in a lot of instances, installing downlights will not infringe the regs. Installing a consumer unit DIY in ones own home or a building fed from the home installation, without notification, infringes the regulations every time.

Paving slabs?

As downlights.

Road tax and insurance aren't cheap either, and the general public cannot legally use private motor vehicles without them - do you expect car dealers to warn people of that?

If not, why not?

Motor law is something most people will have come across, and I would hope that anyone foreign to these shores would be reminded of their obligations when making a purchase. Yes, I know, a lot of sheepskin-clad dealers would turn the other way to keep a sale, but when you're a hundred-store strong DIY chain not relying on the sale of one item then I would expect you to practise a bit of common sense.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS, again you're missing the point I'm trying to make.

No I'm not.

You are missing the point that I am trying to make, namely that your point is illogical, inconsistent and unreasonable.

You can do a lot in respect to repairs to windows without needing notification. If you are talking about a complete unit, many will replace their worn windows in sheds, garages and outbuildings without requiring notification.

But not all - why aren't you complaining that people aren't told about the notification requirements if the windows are going into a dwelling?

Could it be because you are being illogical and inconsistent?

Installing a consumer unit DIY in ones own home or a building fed from the home installation, without notification, infringes the regulations every time.

So does installing windows in ones own home.

Replacing a toilet does not require notification.

Yes it does.

Installing a consumer unit DIY in ones own home or a building fed from the home installation, without notification, infringes the regulations every time.

So does installing a WC in ones home.

Recessed downlighters?

People should be aware of the regulations I agree,

Should they be made aware by the retailer?

but they do not forbid folk installing them.

They forbid them installing them except in a way which complies with the Building Regulations.

Just like consumer units.

Also in a lot of instances, installing downlights will not infringe the regs.

In almost every instance they will, unless particular care is taken to ensure compliance.

Paving slabs?

As downlights.

Planning permission is now required in many areas for paving to the front of the house.

Motor law is something most people will have come across,

Ah..

So there we have it.

You think that in some areas it is reasonable for a retailer to act as if people will be aware of the law, and in other areas it is not, based on what you think most people will have come across.

I would expect you to practise a bit of common sense.

I wish you would.