Testing ;

[EdwardCurrent]

Hello.

I am trying to get my head around testing. I feel confident enough to start taking courses but the books I am reading are to the 16th. Will the introduction of the 17th require any different tests ?.
If I have the 'basic' knowledge and understand that RCD testing will be commonplace for nearly all circuits, but should I read up on anything in particular please ??

Many thanks for taking the time to reply, it IS appreciated.

Ed

 

[Cremeegg]

The fundamental tests are the same under the 17th.

On Site Guide covers basic testing - more detail in Guidance Note 3 - both awaiting updating to reflect 17th edition

 

[FingRinal]

Testing is the easy part. Understanding what you are doing, interpreting the results and knowing what to do when they may not be as expected are the the tricky parts.

 

[Cremeegg]

Too true - make up a test board and test your own house for starters; then get plenty of practice wherever you can.

 

[EdwardCurrent]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

I understand that the testing will be fairly similar.
Without pushing my luck, is the 2391-20 needed to issue PIR's ?
And the 2391-10 for EIC'S and M/W's ?
When I have looked at courses I am a tad confused to be honest.

Thanks agian.

Ed.

 

[Cremeegg]

I'd be wary of a PIR from anyone that hasnt got 2391 - no guarantee but it helps.

Anyone can complete an EIC or MWC but without formal training they are unlikely to get it all right. Have seen plenty accurately completed by people with just 2381.

 

[EdwardCurrent]

Cheers Creme,

I am under the impression that without the 'full' 2391 you cannot issue a PIR. 'Domestic Installers' with the NIC are not permitted to do so with the 'basic' trianing, and wondered if the 2391-20 was needed ?

Thanks Again


Ed

 

[Cremeegg]

This is where the different scheme operators have different standards - I believe NAPIT allow you to do PIR without 2391 whereas NICEIC dont.

In the same way the Part P scheme operators allow different qualifications before you get registered - have to check each scheme to see who wants what. All supposed to operate to same standard but they all have their foibles.

I'd check your insurance carefully to see what you can and can't do as far as PIR's. Think Professional Liability Insurance - certainly mine has some interesting limitations.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

None of the scheme operators write either the law or the regulations.

Any prohibitions they place on what their members may do apply only to their members when working under their auspices and using their certificates. If a NICEIC Domestic Installer wants to do PIRs and use the certificates downloaded from the IET website then they may not stop him.

Anybody may issue EICs, MWCs, PIRs etc without any qualifications at all, and per se they would be doing nothing wrong.

But there are a few reality checks:

1) What value would anyone place on certificates issued by an unqualified person?

2) How would the issuer justify signing that to the best of his knowledge and belief etc if he had no qualifications and was on the sharp end of legal action, criminal or civil, because of a mistake he made?

3) If he is a professional, and is relying on his PII (not PLI - that's for something different), then as Cremeegg says, there will be Ts'n'Cs to beware of.

 

[Taylortwocities]

This is where the different scheme operators have different standards - I believe NAPIT allow you to do PIR without 2391 ..............

.

You're wrong there. You need 2391 to be a full scope NAPIT member. NAPIT only allow full scope members to do PIRs under the NAPIT umbrella.

 

[EdwardCurrent]

Thanks Again.

BAS, . Regarding those reality checks and EIC's and M/W'S certs.

1. The NIC allow DI's to issue these certs after a briefly watching you test a few circuits and asking the odd random question .This deems them qualified without the 2391 ???
I understand that PIR testing requires a more comprehensive knowledge gained through experience or further studies, exams etc,
So, at the end of the day (which it nearly is ), it doesn't matter if you have any testing qualifications, so long as you are deemed competent you can crack on ??????.

2. The issuer would try ( although pointless) throwing it back to the body that deemed them competent ????

3. The NIC make sure you have both PLI + PII in place upon registration.
Would it be better to ignore the T's+C's and compare them after you have completed your own tests ????, maybe a brief look at the comments on existing installation etc.

Thanks for your opinion


Ed

 

[Pensdown]

1. The NIC allow DI's to issue these certs after a briefly watching you test a few circuits and asking the odd random question .This deems them qualified without the 2391 ???
Ed

That's true Ed, and it also works the other way. If an applicant holds 2391 and doesn’t come across as competent they will also fail the inspection.

I don't won't to come over as old and grey because I'm not (yet ) but over the years the NIC have changed their tacked. In the 80's, although in some respects it was easier to become a full NIC member, if you had majors on an inspection you were out.

Now they take the view that it’s better to have contractors on board where their work is inspected and rectified. It also means the contractor has insurance etc which in the domestic market was rare. They also try to raise their member’s standards and of course, they like the money.

I think everyone has got bogged down with qualifications and the NIC’s approach does mean that sparks/companies are judged on their ability to work within the current regs as opposed to a piece of paper.

 

[Spark123]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

I understand that the testing will be fairly similar.
Without pushing my luck, is the 2391-20 needed to issue PIR's ?
And the 2391-10 for EIC'S and M/W's ?
When I have looked at courses I am a tad confused to be honest.

Thanks agian.

Ed.

The C&G 2391-10 is a Level 3 certificate in Inspection, Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations.
The C&G 2391-20 is a Level 3 certificate in Design, Erection and Verification of Electrical Installations.

As BAS has already pointed out, you do not necesserilly need any qualifications to issue PIRs, however under the umbrella of the EAWR you need to be competent. This will include you having sufficient knowledge of the type of installation under test and good knowledge of the testing procedures, interperetation of the results etc in order to prevent any danger or injury. The ball is in your court to prove you are competent. The 2391-10 can go towards proving you have a knowledge of the Inspection, Testing and Certification of electrical installations, it however is aimed more at those who are already doing the job as opposed to starting out.

 

[FingRinal]

Anyone can sign any certificate they like. It is not appropriate to do so if they are not competent to do so. They may also be breaking the law if they do so (contract law, common law etc. etc.)

The NICEIC may have terms and conditions attached to their membership and if they have some small print preventing their DIs from carrying out PIRs on any certificate (IEE or whatever), that's their business. But they can't stop a DI from doing one just the same as the police can't stop a random gunman. But if they catch them afterwards, they could take action.

If someone is attending a course to 'get' a 2391 without relevant experience of testing electrical installations than in my opinion they are a million miles away from ever being competent - 2391 passed or not.

Just passed your driving test? Come and be a Hollywood stunt driver or a police pursuit driver - no further training or experience required!!!!