Time Limits

[diyjoe]

My grandson is a part freeholder and part lease holder of a listed building. Within one month of taking occupancy he received a letter from the local Enforcement Officer stating it had just come to the Councils notice that UPVC windows have been installed and that he must make planning application for which there is a charge and listed build application for which there is no charge to reinstate the original sash windows.
I have researched the planning history of the building and find the building is not original although it does retain some original features of stone work to the front facade. The building was in a row of terraced houses some of which were destroyed by world war 2 bombs leaving my grandsons house as a part structure with no window frames. The house was rebuilt to half its original size with whatever material and window frames was available in those austere times.The council have no records of the rebuild and no records can be found in archives. The house was listed in 1974 grouped as a terrace of houses with very, very vague description that could apply to some of the houses not all.
I have become aware of the laws appertaining to graded buildings and that there is no time limit for a council to issue notices in respect of unlawful development when it is brought to their attention, but I have been unable to find out if there is a law or code of practice that causes a council to act within a certain time limit of knowing about a unlawful development. I have found by examining council files in front of a witness and supervised by a council worker, the council have known about the UPVC windows for 20-years and failed to take action against the then owner. Any comments would be welcome.

 

[Mottie]

I’d say get proper legal advice on this from a qualified person, not strangers on an Internet forum. If it went to court, you couldn’t really turn round and say (insert forum user name) told you it was okay to leave them.

 

[Nakajo]

I agree, while a robust letter usually does the trick, as this is (potentially) a criminal offence, it’s best to seek professional advice in this instance.

 

[Notch7]

I assume you are saying your grandson was not the part freeholder of the flat at the time the windows were installed?

Are you saying that they were done some 20 years ago?

If your grandson has only just moved in, if he purchased the property as part freehold and part leasehold, I am assuming he used a solicitor and or surveyor. If so, they would be my first port of call -they should have done a search and found out that the windows were not original and were changed without listed consent or planning permission.

Presumably since your grandson is not sole free holder, the other party is also implicated -and is possibly the person or company that arranged for the windows to be changed originally.

Its worth checking when the property was listed -it might have not been done after the windows were fitted.
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/

I cant see much point in making a retrospective planning or listed application until you know who's responsibility it is to deal with the issue.

Why is there a need for planning application? -windows dont usually require planning, although in a listed building they will require listed consent.

 

[^woody^]

He should have done his homework before taking occupancy - or should that be purchase?

There is no time limit for enforcement of listed building consent breaches. It does not matter if the council has known about this for years previous.

He could apply for permission to see if the work does not affect the listing and therefore acceptable. But by the sound of it, the frontage appearance is what matters and so plastic windows are not acceptable.

There may be findings of maladministration by failing to act sooner, if this was taken to the ombudsmen, bit that won't affect the fact that the windows need to be changed if they are contrary to the listing.

 

[diyjoe]

Thank you all for your replies, this really is a case of "buyer beware". when I first looked through my grandsons files post Enforcement action, I could find nothing that related to listed buildings, I also noticed that a FENSA certificate had been issued and copy not passed from seller to buyer, and the local search report was missing. On contacting the conveyancing solicitor a copy of the search report was obtained. The report clearly states the building as being listed. The strange thing is the copy of the original please find enclosed letter was not addressed to my grandson's address where he was previously living and to where all other documentation was sent but to the address of the vacant property he was purchasing and it certainly was not on the door mat when he moved in. So it really is a mess and once I gather a little more information from the local council I will seek legal advice.

If, as Woody says it does not matter how long a council has known about unlawful development in relation to a listed building in this case 20 years but it could be longer and then threaten the current owner with a criminal offence as and when it suits the council, then the law relating to listed buildings is a law of convenience to councils and unjust. Does anyone know how to lobby for a change in the law? Only joking.

Thanks for your advice once again.

 

[Tigercubrider]

You can also apply to have a building delisted- if you can prove that it isn't worthy.
Your son might have a good chance given the war damage and rebuild.
But you need to speak to an expert
A mate had his house delisted.

You may find that he comes under "conservation area" then, a mate's son bought a house which proved, during building work, to require a complete ground up rebuild. He has to rebuild in a style so that it matches all the others in the road but can use modern materials.

 

[Notch7]

Thank you all for your replies, this really is a case of "buyer beware". when I first looked through my grandsons files post Enforcement action, I could find nothing that related to listed buildings, I also noticed that a FENSA certificate had been issued and copy not passed from seller to buyer, and the local search report was missing. On contacting the conveyancing solicitor a copy of the search report was obtained. The report clearly states the building as being listed. The strange thing is the copy of the original please find enclosed letter was not addressed to my grandson's address where he was previously living and to where all other documentation was sent but to the address of the vacant property he was purchasing and it certainly was not on the door mat when he moved in. So it really is a mess and once I gather a little more information from the local council I will seek legal advice.

If, as Woody says it does not matter how long a council has known about unlawful development in relation to a listed building in this case 20 years but it could be longer and then threaten the current owner with a criminal offence as and when it suits the council, then the law relating to listed buildings is a law of convenience to councils and unjust. Does anyone know how to lobby for a change in the law? Only joking.

Thanks for your advice once again.

I wonder what alerted the attention of planning enforcement? For most minor things like this I cant seem them bothering to do anything unless a complaint was raised.

Is it just your grandsons property or are there others in the block that have had the same notice issued?

Having reread, I see it was listed in 1974 but windows done around 1997 or earlier.

Strictky speaking it us a criminal offence and applies to iwber and contractor. Which is why I refuse to do any changes to a listed building without consent -although Im sure lots of tradesmen would just go ahead just based on a clients instruction.

Unfortunately the current owner is liable:

A notice can be issued at any time – even many years after the unlawful works were carried out. It can be served on the current owner of a building irrespective of whether they, a previous owner or any other party was responsible for the works

 

[geraldthehamster]

It's a shame there isn't a way to take action against uPVC windows more widely

 

[diyjoe]

No complaints have been made, I think it must have been brought to the Conservation Officer attention when the next door neighbor applied to have work done. The Enforcement Officer states that it has just come to his notice, he ignores the fact that the council have in their own files pictures commissioned by the council dated 20 years ago and did nothing about it. This could be classed as failure of duty for which at the most they could have their hands slapped. So no real advantage in complaining.

The only redemption at the moment is no one knows what was installed after the war and the council can only enforce what was there at the listing date, not as original.

I have asked the council for a meeting to point out the many errors in the Listing Description in the hopes they will support me to have the listing made more accurate, and suggest that as English Heritage puts a life of 25yrs on UPVC windows, against wooden windows that last 100s of years, it would be "greener" to let the UPVC windows live out their usefulness.

Another thing that seems absolutely ridiculous is that matters of conservation rely on the opinions of the Conservation Officers, the result being some councils will permit UPVC some won't.

Notch 7 You mention you would not do work on Listed Buildings without consent. Can I assume from this that you find out if a building is listed before you accept any work? This might be an avenue I should investigate.

 

[diyjoe]

Gerraldthehamster, Can you expand on your statement please.?

 

[motorbiking]

Your grandson may have a negligence claim against his solicitor, they should have done more to advise him that he was buying a listed building. They should then have asked the seller more questions.

 

[Notch7]

Notch 7 You mention you would not do work on Listed Buildings without consent. Can I assume from this that you find out if a building is listed before you accept any work? This might be an avenue I should investigate

Usually clients tell me whether their property is listed, conservation area etc. The problem usually is clients want some new windows but dont want to be bothered with obtaining consent. The problem with doing that is that my company is also committing an offence, so for me its not worth it. It isnt an issue if Im asked to supply a window and the client arranges the fitting, I just get the drawings signed off by the client.

A lot of window fitters, carpenters and other trades have no awareness of doing work without consent and will just go ahead.

Trouble is, these windows were fitted donkeys back so the chance of paperwork etc, let alone business still being around is minimal.

Its an understandable, but unfair rule that the current house owner is the responsible party. That means therefore that the property buyer is entirely reliant on the conveyencing solicitor / surveyor to find out any work done without consent or permissions. Its your grandsons only safety net really and would be my starting point. As above says, it sounds like negligence. Was the property surveyed, or just a valuation?

 

[geraldthehamster]

Gerraldthehamster, Can you expand on your statement please.?

As a crime against our built heritage

 

[Nakajo]

You didn’t fancy the professional advice idea then.