Today's covid news conference

[ellal]

those three are symptoms.

If you were diagnosing a dog, or an unconscious person, they would not be able to tell you their symptoms.

Spots are a sign of chickenpox. Not a symptom. You can see them yourself. You can hear a cough. You can't see a headache.

But they are telling a human being that these are symptoms whether seen or unseen...

And how do you measure the third on that list?

And now for the latest symptoms/'signs'...

Respiratory symptoms

• Breathlessness
  
  
• Cough

Cardiovascular symptoms

• Chest tightness
  
  
• Chest pain
  
  
• Palpitations

Generalised symptoms

• Fatigue
  
  
• Fever
  
  
• Pain

Neurological symptoms

• Cognitive impairment ('brain fog', loss of concentration or memory issues)
  
  
• Headache
  
  
• Sleep disturbance
  
  
• Peripheral neuropathy symptoms (pins and needles and numbness)
  
  
• Dizziness
  
  
• Delirium (in older populations)

Gastrointestinal symptoms

• Abdominal pain
  
  
• Nausea
  
  
• Diarrhoea
  
  
• Anorexia and reduced appetite (in older populations)

Musculoskeletal symptoms

• Joint pain
  
  
• Muscle pain

Psychological/psychiatric symptoms

• Symptoms of depression
  
  
• Symptoms of anxiety

Ear, nose and throat symptoms

• Tinnitus
  
  
• Earache
  
  
• Sore throat
  
  
• Dizziness
  
  
• Loss of taste and/or smell

Dermatological

• Skin rashes

Just about covers virtually everything don't you think?

And when normal medical services are being slowly shut down, how do you distinguish between a normal illness and covid?

Oh that's right they don't...

Chalk it down to covid!

 

[JohnD]

you can divide things into signs and symptoms. they are not the same thing.

plugtops, low voltage, bulbs....

 

[ajohn]

Which I've already covered. An asymptomatic who is following the guidance is logically unlikely to be spreader while asymptomatic, for the reasons I've already posted.

So some aren't. It hits the news now and again and generally likely to be mostly under 30's. Nothing complicated about that. Or the measures just don't work when clearly they can as they have. Maybe we now have a virus that creeps through masks and leaps onto the nearest person. What we do have is one that manages to establish itself more easily - ie more chance of one turning into many. This is natural selection at work aka darwinsism. That's how they come about in the first place.

Given recent announcements of intent it sounds like the gov think the main problem is people not taking it seriously enough and in some cases ignoring the problem completely. Both types are based on garbage information some of which gets posted on here. Usually by finding something that fits in with their own perceptions and not the data the actions are based on. Clearly the gov wants loads of debt, more unemployed, businesses going bust and hospitals being overloaded and other long term problems as well. People have died of covid because they were tested and 60 days later fell of a cliff and some one stuck covid on the death certificate. That is beyond belief yet some do.

Some come up with figures that say >60% herd immunity has been achieved. Something gov would like. Whoops if they get there it's still about due to reinfection. That can only result in 100% eventually. Reinfection is a fact not fiction. It can still mutate. It jumped from human to mink and back again recently. More of that could happen. Say they allowed 100% natural herd rapidly. That would overload the hospitals in terms of people needing just oxygen for a while, death if they don't get it. Then comes people that need more than that. This where very high death estimates come from - it could happen if it was allowed to. They want to control levels for obvious reasons.

Then some politicians - I want lock downs to end and similar. Vote collecting really as providing the right thing happens it's not a problem. Funding probably comes into it more than votes. Businesses of various types mention ideas they reckon will allow them to work normally and sometimes they happen for a while even though they have been tried and dropped as they don't work elsewhere.

We now have 72 known cases of the SA variant. Track and trace has been stepped up on them so they are doing their best. Think about the comments about virus sequencing in finding variants and ask yourself how many of these infections are really around.

My view of them is that they are now a lot more scared than they were when this started but their is still hope. It will take a while to see what the end results of their methods are.

We even have some covid is project fear. People who can't come up with anything more original.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Not just the medical science though .
Social science .
Behavioural science.
Economic science.

And the political science?
Like economic science, putting the economy in higher priority than the health and well-being of the citizens.

preservation of democracy
It is the first responsibility of government in a democratic society to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens.​

Which I've already covered. An asymptomatic who is following the guidance is logically unlikely to be spreader while asymptomatic, for the reasons I've already posted.

If is a big word. and we know that there are irresponsible people about.
And haven't we already dismissed your hypothesis as a dangerous assumption, an assumption only posited by you because the experts assume that asymptomatic people do spread the virus, and have closed schools etc because of the danger. So your 'already covered' has also been already refuted.

When symptomatic, they are more likely to have the mechanisms to spread the 'rona, but less likely the opportunity (laid up in bed, avoided by others, hospitalised.......)

Unless they're mildly symptomatic and being irresponsible.

 

[Brigadier]

But they are telling a human being that these are symptoms whether seen or unseen...

And how do you measure the third on that list?

And now for the latest symptoms/'signs'...

Respiratory symptoms

• Breathlessness
  
  
• Cough

Cardiovascular symptoms

• Chest tightness
  
  
• Chest pain
  
  
• Palpitations

Generalised symptoms

• Fatigue
  
  
• Fever
  
  
• Pain

Neurological symptoms

• Cognitive impairment ('brain fog', loss of concentration or memory issues)
  
  
• Headache
  
  
• Sleep disturbance
  
  
• Peripheral neuropathy symptoms (pins and needles and numbness)
  
  
• Dizziness
  
  
• Delirium (in older populations)

Gastrointestinal symptoms

• Abdominal pain
  
  
• Nausea
  
  
• Diarrhoea
  
  
• Anorexia and reduced appetite (in older populations)

Musculoskeletal symptoms

• Joint pain
  
  
• Muscle pain

Psychological/psychiatric symptoms

• Symptoms of depression
  
  
• Symptoms of anxiety

Ear, nose and throat symptoms

• Tinnitus
  
  
• Earache
  
  
• Sore throat
  
  
• Dizziness
  
  
• Loss of taste and/or smell

Dermatological

• Skin rashes

Just about covers virtually everything don't you think?

And when normal medical services are being slowly shut down, how do you distinguish between a normal illness and covid?

Oh that's right they don't...

Chalk it down to covid!

At some point in time, and at various points over the last year too, I've had everything on that list barring delirium.
I've also felt fine as well.
Perhaps I've had the 'rona, certainly seems that way

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

you can divide things into signs and symptoms. they are not the same thing.

Aaah, OK, So death is not a symptom, it's a sign.
OK, for all those times I've said that people who have died from Covid have had symptoms, I meant that they've had signs.

 

[Brigadier]

And haven't we already dismissed your hypothesis as a dangerous assumption, an assumption only posited by you because the experts assume that asymptomatic people do spread the virus, and have closed schools etc because of the danger. So your 'already covered' has also been already refuted.

You disagree. Nothing more to it.
And no surprise either.

 

[Dangee]

Mute it Brig. Most have.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

You disagree. Nothing more to it.
And no surprise either.

We disagree.
I can't disagree on my own.

 

[Brigadier]

I can't disagree on my own.

You'd give it a good go .

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

You'd give it a good go .

Suggesting that the disagreement is solely the preserve of the other person is a self-centered mindset.
It might or could apply if the other sole person responsible for the disagreement is disagreeing with the dominant, generally held belief.
But in our disagreement, this is not the case. Your hypothesis is the minority opinion, the minority of yours, and you alone, that asymptomatic patients do not transmit Covid.

An asymptomatic who is following the guidance is logically unlikely to be spreader while asymptomatic,

That is a dangerous and stupid hypothesis. It potentially serves to confuse and misguide people. And there are already enough confusing rules to consider.

If, as your hypothesis suggests, that asymptomatic infected people do not transmit Covid, if they observe other precautions, was correct, then the same would apply to symptomatic infected people, i.e. that they would not transmit Covid if they followed the preventative measures for not transmitting Covid, i.e masks, hand sanitising, etc. Which is utterly stupid and dangerous nonsense, and would suggest that self-isolation is unnecessary.

Additionally, let's take a scenario of an asymptomatic patient out shopping, wearing mask and taking other appropriate precautions. During their trip they've scratched their itchy nose, re-adjusted their mask a few times, thereby picking up the virus on their hands.
They get to the veg part of the store, select a few apples, leaving the virus on other apples, the scales, the cart, the bags that they handle, etc.
These bags are handled at checkout by the cashier, and the other apples, the cart, the scales, the card machine, etc are handled by other customers, etc, etc.

Furthermore, the wearing of masks, etc is not 100% guarantee of not transmitting the virus.

And you suggest that asymptomatic infected people do not transmit the virus?
Your hypothesis is dangerous and stupid nonsense!
And you claim to be an expert on such matters?

 

[Brigadier]

And you suggest that asymptomatic infected people do not transmit the virus?

Read my post back; if fact, read two of them back.

"Unlikely".
"Negligible".

Knocking things of your own invention down is commonly known as "Strawman".

I'm done with this particular circular "discussion".

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Read my post back; if fact, read two of them back.

"Unlikely".
"Negligible".

I quoted your salient point.
It's still dangerous and stupid nonsense, and you need to stop spreading such ludicrous hypotheses.

 

[ajohn]

There are minority opinions down to the various views that are about. Departing from our establishment view tends to be via assuming these people are stupid and some other pundit isn't. More pundits agree with the establishment views than don't so the odd ones are really and truly outnumbered. Some would argue about the degree of controls used but that's about it really. They usually want more of them.

Re infection was reported from other countries rather early on. The UK and some other countries attitude was must be a testing mess up. Virus's usually hang around etc after some one has recovered and aspects like that even just down to low quality testing. Some even we are better than them like comments cropped up.

So they look at it within the NHS - eventually probably because they found some due to what they were doing anyway as others did. They then find people can be re infected in a place where they are doing their best to prevent people from being infected. The test involves swabs taken properly. The one in the nose is very uncomfortable. It uses the part of the nose that is always moist. In order to be reliable that's a must. It also needs some degree of the virus to be their to show positive. Some people test negative anyway yet have problems. They get x rayed and it can turn out to be covid. More health affluent countries use MRI. So people are re infected so can infect others. Seems they are going to extend the study.

How many people have had it? I do know how they are getting numbers on that. No one has come up with an easy antibody test that works reliably that can be distributed otherwise they would send one to everybody so they approach some people scattered about the country for DIY samples. They did mention this ages ago saying people would be contacted. They can only do so many. My wife was some time ago now but not initially. Probably to extend the age range covered by using the biobank. I wasn't contacted as my registration was messed up. Trying to get several drops of blood out of a pin prick wouldn't work out due to problems she has. These are not one offs tests they are done monthly. They also monitor antibody levels in blood donations. So some still think they have no idea? They would also monitor for infection.

 

[ajohn]

Oh and there is also the very obvious way of knowing about people who have been infected but probably mostly some with one of the symptoms who actually notice.