Toilets and changing rooms

[King Billy]

Let's start with what you think is the definition of "woman". What characteristics does a person have to have to be classed as a "woman"?

You're asking intelligent questions of poorly informed people who have immutable ideological notions of sex and gender.

They were probably the same kind of people that argued that homosexuality was sinful because the bible said so (except it didn't).

A quick search shows that the subject has been discussed in this forum multiple times. Still those who refuse to learn from medical science repeatedly argue that sex and gender is binary when medical science proves them wrong.
One can only assume that they want to persistently preach their Victorian outdated ideology based on religious beliefs. They're the equivalent of Victorian families imprisoning their relatives because they might be suffering from a mental illness. So they were locked away from society, hidden from shame brought on the family, and invariably left untreated to sink ever deeper into despair and forgotten.

 

[morqthana]

I've got a better idea.

You try to show me a definition of a "woman" that includes men.

That's odd - I could have sworn that it was you who made a statement.

Hang on while I check....

Yes - I'm right, you did.

Being a woman is binary.

I'm pretty sure that you're familiar with the concept that people who make a claim, or state that something is a fact, are the ones who should be able to justify that claim, or provide proof of the fact.

So if you say "being a woman is binary" then it really is down to you to show that that is true.

 

[King Billy]

I've got a better idea.

You try to show me a definition of a "woman" that includes men.

Intersex are neither simply male nor female. The prefix "inter" means between one and the other.
But to understand the concept, you need to accept that sex is not binary, it's more of a spectrum.
Some are born clearly toward one end or the other. Some not so. Some undergo surgery when young to make their sex clearer, more obviously binary, and more easily definable as one or the other.
In other societies (usually of different religions) accept that gender is fluid for some people. But Christianity describes those societies and beliefs as sinful. Many people hold those Christian values so deep they're immutable.

 

[fillyboy]

That's odd - I could have sworn that it was you who made a statement.

Hang on while I check....

Yes - I'm right, you did.



I'm pretty sure that you're familiar with the concept that people who make a claim, or state that something is a fact, are the ones who should be able to justify that claim, or provide proof of the fact.

So if you say "being a woman is binary" then it really is down to you to show that that is true.

 

[JohnD]

So if you say "being a woman is binary" then it really is down to you to show that that is true.

I showed you two options.

Option 1 - you are a woman

Option 2 - you are not a woman.

 

[JohnD]

Intersex are neither simply male nor female.

So, not a Trans person, then. Vanishingly small numbers and irrelevant to the Trans campaign.

And you say they are not female.

 

[JohnD]

But Christianity describes those societies and beliefs as sinful.

Tell me which of Christ's teachings you read that in.

 

[JohnD]

you need to accept that sex is not binary, it's more of a spectrum.

No I don't.

Perhaps you are thinking of orientation, which does not change a man into a woman.,

Perhaps you are thinking of "gender" which in current parlance by Trans enthusiasts means a feeling, a fantasy, a whim, a hallucination, or a belief.

I have no responsibility for the ideas in people's heads.

An idea does not turn a man into a woman.

 

[morqthana]

Nope.

JohnD said "being a woman is binary".

I am not swerving by asking him what his definition of "woman" is which makes it one of two binary states.

 

[morqthana]

irrelevant to the Trans campaign.

No - absolutely not irrelevant in the framework you are trying to construct.

As son as you start trying to justify your transphobic ideology by saying that sex is binary you make it utterly relevant.

If you want to decouple sex and gender identity then fine, we can proceed on the basis that the small numbers of people with non-binary sex markers are not the underlying cause of non-binary gender identity.

But for as long as you refuse to do that, we can't.

I showed you two options.

Option 1 - you are a woman

Option 2 - you are not a woman.

Indeed you did.

But what definition of "woman" are you relying on when you assert that it's binary, that someone either is, or is not a woman?

It cannot be sex, because no sex markers present as a sex binary. They just don't.

It is not possible to have a binary sex classification in humans. It just isn't.

If you try to deny that you are trying to deny science, you are trying to deny biology. To what end?

 

[morqthana]

Perhaps you are thinking of "gender" which in current parlance by Trans enthusiasts means a feeling, a fantasy, a whim, a hallucination, or a belief.

In the same way that some people think they're homosexual? Is that also a fantasy, a whim, a hallucination, or a belief?

I have no responsibility for the ideas in people's heads.

But you have complete responsibility for the transphobic denialism in yours.

You are otherwise a great believer in the importance of facts. What is it about the facts in this area which cause you to want to dismiss them?

 

[morqthana]

You're asking intelligent questions of poorly informed people who have immutable ideological notions of sex and gender.

It's not that. The world is full of people who are not poorly informed, but when informed of things which they don't like they think they can simply deny them out of existence.

It's very surprising to see that JohnD has joined that group.

 

[King Billy]

The UK Supreme Court has ruled that the legal definition of a woman should be based on biological sex.

Not many sane people seriously disagree.

The judges ruled that when the term "woman" is used in the Equality Act it means a biological woman, and "sex" means biological sex.

It also makes it clear that if a space or service is designated as women-only, a person who was born male but identifies as a woman does not have a right to use that space or service.

The Supreme Court justices argued this was the only consistent, coherent interpretation.

Not many sane people seriously disagree.

Legal definitions do not replace scientific facts.
There have been many cases throughout history when legislation and science was in contradiction.
Also many legal definitions were and are based on Christian beliefs.

 

[King Billy]

I showed you two options.

Option 1 - you are a woman

Option 2 - you are not a woman.

That is simply you repeating of your claim, not what morqthana asked.

.... What characteristics does a person have to have to be classed as a "woman"?

 

[King Billy]

So, not a Trans person, then. Vanishingly small numbers and irrelevant to the Trans campaign.

If someone has been born somewhere between male and female, and later in life they feel they were allocated the wrong sex, they may, or may not, feel the need to change their allocated sex, and adopt their preferred gender, i.e. become transexual.
Why don't you show us, within some degree of accuracy, how many you think is "vanishingly small".
And then perhaps you could present your argument for why those people should be declared 'non-people' and be denied a role in society.

And you say they are not female.

I did? Where?
Some people are born intersex, neither 100% male nor 100% female. Which would prove the point that sex is not binary.
You think these people should have their gender decided for them, at birth? And if they feel later in life that their allocated gender is incorrect, and they adopt their preferred gender, they should become invisible in society?