towel warmer install

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by tommyl18, 30 Oct 2012.

  1. tommyl18

    tommyl18

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    Hi guys, im looking at installing a new towel warmer 400watts to a wc area consists of a wc and a basin. I want to spur off the kitchen socket the other side of the wall with a fused spur and some kind of timer device. Would this be acceptable or would it need an independant circuit also if the circuit isn't rcd protected could I fit one to the spur or would the whole circuit need to be rcd protected?
     
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  3. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    If you install an FCU in the kitchen then it's notifiable.

    If you are installing new cables concealed in a wall or partition at less then 50mm depth, etc then they will need RCD protection (see http://www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:walls), so if the socket circuit isn't already RCD protected use an RCD FCU.
     
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  4. tommyl18

    tommyl18

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    The circuit is rcd protected and I wanted to drill through the wall and mount the fcu on the wall next to the towel warmer.
     
  5. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    As you will have seen, he's now said that he would like to install the FCU next to the towel rail - which I guess is OK, since it's not a bathroom, and is presumably not going to involve more than 3m cable from the ring. Unfortunately, however, the way I read Schedule 4, it would then still be notifiable if, as seems to be the case, he wishes to take the spur off a kitchen socket. I have to say that words like 'silly' are close to my typing fingers!

    Kind Regards, John
     
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  6. tommyl18

    tommyl18

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    thanks for the replys
     
  7. tommyl18

    tommyl18

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    I have looked at the towel warmer again and its a 200 watt not a 400 watt and its not even gonna throw out more than 1 amp so I was wondering could I come off the lighting circuit with a fused spur? I know its not good practise but saves me spending a fortune with building control?? Just a thought
     
  8. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    Although, as you say, it's probably not the best of practices, there's no fundamental electrical reason why it should not be done, particular given that the 'energy efficient' lights most of us are using these days usually only use a fraction of the 5A/6A available on a lighting circuit. Fortunately, as far as the rules/laws are concerned, the words that allow adding a fused spur without notification do not say that one can only add them to a sockets circuit - so you should be OK, so long as you don't take it from a light fitting in the kitchen (which would take you back to square one!).

    Kind Regards, John
     
  9. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    This has been discussed before.

    IMO there is an incredibly strong case to make for it not being notifiable if the FCU is not in the kitchen, no matter that the donor socket is, and that if you argue otherwise you are actually arguing for the creation of inconsistencies and internally illogical provisions in Schedule 4.
     
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  11. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    Yes, it has been discussed before,on a number of occasions, and we are aware of your view. However, the length alone of the thread to which you linked is a sure indication of the fact that your views/opinions on these issues are not universally shared.
    I don't really need to argue for the creation of such inconsistencies and internally (and externally!) illogical provisions, since there are plenty there already.

    I certainly agree that if one installs a fused spur on a 'kitchen circuit' by connecting it to that circuit somewhere other than in the kitchen, then that would be non-notifiable per Schedule 4. However, 2(a) of the schedule speaks of "work which is not in a kitchen", and I'm not sure one can call it that if it involves 'fiddling with' the connections to a socket in the kitchen.

    However, don't get me wrong. If my interpretation of Schedule 4 is correct, then I would be very happy and comfortable breaking the law by not notifying the work we are talking about.

    Kind Regards, John
     
  12. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    The length was mostly down to just one other person who started with the objection to what he saw as inconsistencies in Schedule 4 and then absolutely refused to accept explanations which removed/minimised them, embarking instead on a series of "interpretations" (often contradicting himself in doing so) which actually created more inconsistencies.

    And a few contributions from someone whose degree of rationality can be judged by his claim that electrical appliances are not items of electrical equipment.


    Read that topic again. Unless you argue that the FCU and the cable supplying it do not comprise an atomic item (in which case no installations of FCUs anywhere could ever be non-notifiable because there's no exemption for the cable) then the only interpretation of location which works is the location of the FCU. Which is not in the kitchen.

    Or you could join Paul_C's camp and, when faced with legislation which you criticise for inconsistencies and illogical provisions, look for ways to make that situation far worse.

    But you're on your own - it all boils down to that, and if it is your desire, for whatever reason, to make it worse, you are never going to listen to explanations which make it better, and I have no intention of carrying on that debate here.
     
  13. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    Fair enough - but is/was not your position that, whilst installation of an FCU (as a fused spur from an existing ring or radial final circuit) is, in most situations, not notifiable, connecting anything to the load side of that FCU may well be notifiable - on the basis that such work does not appear anywhere in Schedule 4's list of works which are not notifiable.

    Kind Regards, John
     
  14. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    True - I stopped thinking about the OP's project too soon.

    Installation of a new fixed appliance, such as a towel rail, is notifiable.

    But that's another of Approced Document P's departures from what the law actually says:

    h. The installation of fixed equipment is within
    the scope of Part P, even where the final
    connection is by a 13A plug and socket.
    However, work is notifiable only if it involves
    fixed wiring and the installation of a new
    circuit or the extension of a circuit in a kitchen
    or special location or associated with a
    special installation.

    So it would be rude to refuse to take what it offers.
     
  15. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    Quite.
    Yes, I thought that was your view. In that regard I feel sure that Paul C isn't the only person who has other thoughts on the subject. I think that a good few people would feel that many/most things permanently wired to an FCU probably qualified as 'fixed appliances' (they certainly aren't 'portable') in which case it would seem lunacy for the law to intend to allow an FCU to be installed without notification despite the fact that, in many/most cases, connecting most things to that FCU would be notifiable. Very few people want to install an FCU and not connect it to anything!
    Which, of course, is what I'm suggesting that Schedule 4 ('the law') intended to say, even though they didn't choose words which said that explicitly (maybe they should have written something like "... connect sockets or appliances via a fused spur..."). However, as we've often discussed, although the citing of Approved Doc P would presumably be very helpful as part of one's defence, technically speaking 'the law is the law' - so if (as you obviously do) you believe your interpretation of the law, then if you installed a new towel rail via an FCU, you would technically be breaking (or, at least, would believe that you were technically breaking) the law.

    Kind Regards, John
     
  16. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    Maybe they should, but they didn't and I can't help observing that they have had many opportunities to change that, and they've not taken a single one of them.


    Yes, but I'm not a policeman or any other form of law enforcement official.
     
  17. JohnW2

    JohnW2

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    For once, we seem to be basically agreed in terms of our personal attitudes to the bottom line, even if we have differing views/opinions on the way. You believe that to connect a fused spur to a kitchen socket is not notifiable, but that to connect a new towel rail to the spur is notifiable in terms of the law, but also feel that it 'would be rude' not to go with the contrary view on the latter point offered by Approved Doc P - which I take it to mean that you wouldn't notify. I am uncertain as to whether the law allows connecting a fused spur to be connected to a kitchen socket without notification, but am doubtful as to whether connecting a (new) towel rail to a spur is, per se, notifiable. However, even if my doubts about the former are justified, I would happily break that particular part of the law - so, whatever, I wouldn't notify, either.

    Kind Regards,
     
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