Twin ring circuit

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I have a quirky ring circuit as follows. I have two 2.5mm T&E from the CU to a 30A JB in a services cupboard (this arises as a result of a major extension where the CU was moved from one side of the house to the other but existing wiring was left in place).

At the JB, there are two pairs of cables for (in effect) two rings joining the feed from the CU. One ring serves one side of the kitchen (not much in the way of fixed load - m/wave, cooker hood, hob ignition and dishwasher) and the other serves the other end of the kitchen and a lightly used reception room - virtually no fixed load.

The JB (3 terminals) is wired with all neutrals connected (quite a job getting 6 conductors in one terminal) and 3 live conductors to each of the other two terminals, arranged so that the one live from the feed and each of the two sub-rings are joined in one terminal and the remaining 'return' lives to the other terminal.

All the earths are taken to a separately mounted earth bar.

I could make this into a proper ring but would have to install another JB.

Feed live>>JB>>Load 1 live>>Load 1 Live return>>JB>>Load 2 live>>Load 2 live return>>JB>>Feed live return

Repeat for neutrals.

Is that the recommended course or is it acceptable to leave things as they are - and why in either case?
 
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Weird configuration, it would be a nightmare to test, I can't actually see too many issues with it, possibly there is a greater chance of overloading one leg of the main ring with inbalence of loads around the rings(and if you get the lives crossed so the feed and return of the subring share one main leg, you have the same dangers as a broken ring) Also you might have interference problems due to inbalences.

I'd have no hesitation in converting to one proper ring, I'd use three joint boxes for this, (one to join a leg of each of the subrings to each other, and one to join each remianing legs of the subrings to the legs that come from the CU), or even make it into two radials
 
Weird configuration, it would be a nightmare to test, I can't actually see too many issues with it, possibly there is a greater chance of overloading one leg of the main ring with inbalence of loads around the rings(and if you get the lives crossed so the feed and return of the subring share one main leg, you have the same dangers as a broken ring) Also you might have interference problems due to inbalences.

I'd have no hesitation in converting to one proper ring, I'd use three joint boxes for this, (one to join a leg of each of the subrings to each other, and one to join each remianing legs of the subrings to the legs that come from the CU), or even make it into two radials
There is no advantage making it one big ring rather than two small ones and as it is now it keeps volt drop lower than one larger ring would so no problem there. It is sometimes known as a "butterfly" circuit (well it is by me) . The jointing of the connections doesn`t sound the best though.
Yes it does make it a little more difficult to test but hey ho sailor vee (as the French don`t say).
If you do want to convert it to one larger ring instead of two smaller ones then providing the calcs for volt drop still work out acceptable then fair enough but there might be no need .
Yes I am aware that this is an old thread but I just wanted to point out that one, two, three, four rings being one circuit either connected at the consumer unit or at the end of a suitable radial is not in itself a big no no even if it makes testing a little more taxing. It really is just a question of are the jointing terminals suitable.
 
Are you sure its a ring, not a broken ring with four radials

Blup
 
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An interesting problem, we read "The load current in any part of the circuit should be unlikely to exceed for long periods the current-carrying capacity of the cable (Regulation 433.1.5 refers)." and it continues with suggestions, but the problem is with a ring final near to the origin a series of loads can cause a current of over 20 amp in one leg of the ring.

We when doing the C&G 2391 were told to look for a fig of 8 as this could allow one leg to become overloaded, before the RCBO came in I had considered using a double pole 16 amp MCB so if either leg exceeded 16 amp it would trip, however never done it or seen it done.

However this was one of the reasons why not to use the lollipop system, where a large cable brings the supply across the house, possibly a 6 mm² into a junction box, a cooker connection unit seem favourite, and then form a local ring from that point. By using heavier cable one can get over volt drop problems do to distance, and get a better loop impedance, and it has been used for kitchen ring finals, but then one needs to work out likely hood of overload near the split.

The common practice at one point was to use two 2.5 mm² cables to a grid switch, and then a series of radials to fixed items like fridge, freezer, and washing machine, main reason for two 2.5 mm² cables rather than one 6 mm² cable was could not get a pair of 6 mm² cables in the 20 amp switches. it was not because of overload of one leg, but it did however stop the overload of one leg as a result, often called the kitchen ring final.

My mothers house had a 10 mm² SWA cable around outside of house to feed a kitchen consumer unit, it was done because the house needed a re-wire, so could not fit RCD's in main consumer unit, but kitchen needed RCD protection, so 4 x RCBO's fitted in the kitchen, latter after a re-wire this remained, and fed with a non RCD protected MCB in main board, which the use of SWA allowed, had it been 10 mm² twin and earth cable, the RCD protection would be needed in the main CU.

What we are looking at is design, and to be frank we often don't design, we do it that way because we have always done it that way, we are told limit of 106 meters of 2.5 mm² in a ring, which is great, no more than one role in a ring, but once installed we can't measure the length using a tape measure, we need to calculate the length, by measuring the loop impedance or prospective short circuit current we can work out the length of a radial, but for a ring final we need to either measure the resistance or have a guess where the centre is.

We may have worked out in collage that the line - neutral loop needs to be around 0.94 Ω when the incomer is 0.35 Ω but how often do we really check? Yes we check below 1.38 Ω so a type B will trip with a short circuit on the magnetic part of the MCB, but how often do we really check the volt drop?

Is volt drop really that important? With fluorescent lamps with wire wound ballast, or fridges and freezers with single phase capacitor start motors maybe volt drop was important, I had one time where AC's were failing do to volt drop, but it was rather large, the Turkish electrician thought that two 110 volt to neutral supplies from a 3 phase supply = 220 volt, however is only equals 190 volt, it was not from a split phase, it was from a three phase supply.

However although most freezers today say do not use with an extension lead due to volt drop problems, they can stall on trying to start and in the end the overload fails due to repeated tripping, in the main they are designed to run on 220 volt, although we harmonised with Europe to 230 volt until we started using EV's and solar panels, we stayed at 240 and rest of Europe stayed at 220, so most equipment will work fine on a 220 volt supply. It can drop to 207 volt and still be within spec, and switch mode power supplies and pulse width modulated chips in LED lighting means volt drop is hardly a problem.

As to DIY how many can measure loop impedance to be able to work out volt drop? At one point I worried that if I extended a ring final, that some one in the future doing an EICR could work out it was too long, and I would be required to correct it. However once I had built the java script software to convert loop impedance readings into volt drop and ring final length, I realised the loop impedance readings are not accurate enough to show one is wrong. Remember two readings required supply loop impedance and centre of ring loop impedance, so 0.02 becomes 0.04 ohms +/- and also the incoming reading can alter due to loading, so before one could say an error had been made we would need it to be around 0.08 ohms out, so one could add around 14 meters of cable over the 106 meter permitted without anyone being able to prove you have made an error.

Clearly if well out we would be able to see it was, but would need to be over the reading required for short circuit protection (1.38 Ω) before one could really say there was an error, although we use with a ring final 20 amp at centre and 12 amp even spread so we work on 26 amp for Ib this is not in the rule book, so a designer could claim he used 13 amp at centre and 19 amp even spread giving a much lower Ib.

Oh what a tangled web we weave, this could go on for a record in thread length as it is clearly not well defined as to what is permitted. I will read with interest what others think. I have assumed @Observer has done what ever years ago, so this is just academic.
 

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