two way light switch problems

[caledonia77]

Hello all,

I am just looking for some advice on problems I am having changing a double light switch in my flat - I changed it today along with most of the light switches - but the double switch and one of the ones connected to it are no longer working

I have checked the sticky topic at the begining but I can't really make sense of why I can't get it to work now!

The wiring is from the 1970's - it was an Ashley double socket in place before. The back of the socket had 8 holes, four to each switch. The neutral cables were wired into a hole each at the top and the live wires, of which there are only three, were two in one hole and one in theother. No earth wire so two unused spots. The section the live wires was going into was labelled intermediate. The holes at thet top had no markings.

The new double switch is a MK from B & Q. Three holes to each switch - L1, Common, L2. So first try I out them basically where they had been before - Neutrals in L1, Lives in L2 - this didnt work. I have now swapped them over. I have the lives in L1's and the Neutrals in L2. The attatched switch at the end of the hall which is not working also has the Live in L1 and the neutral in L2.

So I have no idea where I have gone wrong and before I get out the yellow pages and arrange to have an electrician come out I wondered if there was something I was missing?

I haven't mixed the wires up - the wires from switch one (single switch at front door) are a live and 2 neutrals. The live is in L1 and the neautrals in L2. In the double switch I have the single live in L1 and the 2 neutrals in L2.

The other single switch at the top of the stairs is the only one still working - and the only one I havent tried to change yet. All other rooms are working fine - but they were straight forward and easy to change.

I hope this has made sense! I can post an image if it would be easier.....realise I am not using technical terms - and probably should have left well alone! But I hoping this is just something simple I am overlooking! Worryingly I have tried to put the old one back on and it still didnt work - which makes me think I have mixed something up I shouldnt have!!

Many Thanks

 

[Spark123]

Some pics will help, a pic of the back of the old switch, the new switch and the existing switches.
You do not usually have neutrals connected to a switch (unless double poled), you usually have live and switch live.
How many switches are there for each light?

 

[flameport]

The back of the socket had 8 holes, four to each switch.

...

The new double switch is a MK from B & Q. Three holes to each switch - L1, Common, L2.

The old switches were intermediates.
The new ones are 2 way.

You have purchased the wrong type of switch.

 

[caledonia77]

The back of the socket had 8 holes, four to each switch.

...

The new double switch is a MK from B & Q. Three holes to each switch - L1, Common, L2.

The old switches were intermediates.
The new ones are 2 way.

You have purchased the wrong type of switch.

OK well that makes everything clearer then! I just thought the differences were because of age and wiring changing.

So back to B & Q for an intermediate then. Slightly concerned that when I tried to wire back up the old one it still didnt work - we shall see.

I have also just noticed that the bathroom and kitchen lights - which have been working fine and were changed last weekend - have also stopped working. Living room is still fine. Is it likley this is because of the muck up I have made with the other one - or have I managed to totally stuff the whole thing!!!

I feel really stupid right now!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The wiring is from the 1970's - it was an Ashley double socket in place before. The back of the socket had 8 holes, four to each switch.

Switch:

Socket:

The neutral cables were wired into a hole each at the top

They are not neutrals.

You are really going to struggle to ever get work on lighting circuits to go well if you don't understand how they work, and thinking that blacks are always neutral will lead to blown fuses/tripped MCBs/wrecked switches...

Please learn what to do before plunging in trying to do it by guesswork and assumptions.

http://www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:lighting

http://www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books

No earth wire so two unused spots.

If there's no earth wire then I hope that your new switches aren't metal and that your light fittings are all double insulated.

Still, at least there being no earths meant that you couldn't put them into switch terminals which would result in blown fuses/tripped MCBs/wrecked switches...

The section the live wires was going into was labelled intermediate.....The new double switch is a MK from B & Q. Three holes to each switch - L1, Common, L2.

Why did you buy a 2-way switch to replace an intermediate? Did you know that the old one was only being used as a 2-way?

So I have no idea where I have gone wrong and before I get out the yellow pages and arrange to have an electrician come out I wondered if there was something I was missing?

What you're missing, I'm afraid, is the necessary understanding of how lighting circuits are wired, how 2-way and intermediate switches work etc.

I haven't mixed the wires up... I have tried to put the old one back on and it still didnt work - which makes me think I have mixed something up I shouldnt have!!

You have. You can't go by physical position when swapping 2-way switches because layouts vary, let alone putting a 2-way where an intermediate was because they work very differently.

Do you have a multimeter?

 

[caledonia77]

Thank you for your in depth response - and use of photographs to show me what a socket and a switch looks like! Thankfully I did know the difference between a socket and a switch but clearly my misuse of the word socket caused some confusion - thank you for highlighting that. Just to be clear- I am talking about lighting - light switches - thats it. Somehow I managed to change the sockets last week with no major mishaps....seems I have been a lucky girl up until now!

The neutral cables were wired into a hole each at the top

They are not neutrals.

You are really going to struggle to ever get work on lighting circuits to go well if you don't understand how they work, and thinking that blacks are always neutral will lead to blown fuses/tripped MCBs/wrecked switches...

Please learn what to do before plunging in trying to do it by guesswork and assumptions.

http://www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:lighting

http://www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books

I appreciate that clearly I haven't known enough of what I needed to know to tackle this job. Very naive of me. Having managed to change the ceiling roses, sockets (yes I mean the ones on the wall for appliances) and single light switches without problem I had naively (at my own admission) thought I could change the double light switch. Clearly that hasn't been the case. I should have arranged an electrician before hand because despite looking at these diagrams numerous times yesterday I find it hard to follow. Lesson learnt, I should have called an electrician and saved myself the problem I now have of lighting not working. However in my defence (only somewhat ) but as a woman living alone I have found electricians tend to give me over priced quotes - maybe my bad luck and no excuse for taking on something I clearly couldnt do but having been quoted £190 for what in the end I got done for £30 then I guess I don't generally trust el electricians as far as I can throw them!

Oh and my incorrect assumption on black wires always being neutral comes from the instructions with all the fixtures I have installed so far as my wiring is all pre-2004 - red for live black for neutral - certainly it has been the case thus far in the flat I have lived in for ten years....but maybe I am wrong to assume that and maybe the black wires are in fact something else.

No earth wire so two unused spots.

If there's no earth wire then I hope that your new switches aren't metal and that your light fittings are all double insulated.

Still, at least there being no earths meant that you couldn't put them into switch terminals which would result in blown fuses/tripped MCBs/wrecked switches...

Certain there are no earths - and the new switches are just ugly white plastic so no problems there.

The section the live wires was going into was labelled intermediate.....The new double switch is a MK from B & Q. Three holes to each switch - L1, Common, L2.

Why did you buy a 2-way switch to replace an intermediate? Did you know that the old one was only being used as a 2-way?

I bought the double two way because it was all B&Q had and therefore I assumed it was correct....me and my assumptions again I guess !
I have been back to B&Q tonight and they don't do double intermediates, they only do single intermediates. So unsure as to how on earth this can be rectified if indeed it is an intermdiate I need.....back to me needing an electrician I guess!

So I have no idea where I have gone wrong and before I get out the yellow pages and arrange to have an electrician come out I wondered if there was something I was missing?

What you're missing, I'm afraid, is the necessary understanding of how lighting circuits are wired, how 2-way and intermediate switches work etc.

Yep I have gathered that - more fool me for thinking I could do it - clearly I can't.

I haven't mixed the wires up... I have tried to put the old one back on and it still didnt work - which makes me think I have mixed something up I shouldnt have!!

You have. You can't go by physical position when swapping 2-way switches because layouts vary, let alone putting a 2-way where an intermediate was because they work very differently.

Clearly I can't - error of the internet I guess as a few sites had suggested changing it by literally changing it bit by bit to duplicate what is already there.

Do you have a multimeter?

Would't have the fogiest what a multimeter is never mind whether I do or not!

And I guess the fact my kitchen and bathroom lights are now no longer working is because I have somehow managed to break the connection for the lights.....yes I know not the proper technical term but hopefully that makes sense!

Yellow pages for me in the morning then!!

 

[LoveRocket]

You have seriously buggered something up here I'm afraid. I'm guessing you didn't take photos or make a diagram of the old switch connections before you ripped it out?

All may not be lost, take and upload photos of the wiring behind the switch, the other switch for the light, and the wiring at the rose itself.

re intermediate switches - are you sure you need one? Intermediates are used on three(or more)-way circuits, ie there's three or more switches controlling the same light - is this the case in your flat (it sound unlikely)

If you don't indeed need an intermediate and upload the requested photos we may be able to help you to make this work with what you have.

 

[caledonia77]

OK I'll give it a shot with the photos.

Basically there are three switches involved here.

The first switch is by the front door as you walk in and can switch on the lights in the top hall (you entry in the top landing).

It has TWO black wires and ONE red wire. The original switch on the wall had the black wires wired into two sperate sections at the top which said L1, L2 and then the red wired in at the bottom to an L1. I changed it - it is not working.

The inside looks like this. View media item 24745
This controls only the top hall lights and is currently not working at all.

The middle switch is at the top of the stairs and I assume the left switch ties in with the top light and the right switch ties in the with the bottom hall light. I have assumed the wiring inside correlates the same way due to the number of wires - switch one has only one red wire as does the set of wires on the left hand side. (I might have explained a bit more clearly in the album).

View media item 24748
and a wider shot - it looks like a lot of wires but only the set of three (2 black 1 red) and then the set of 4 (2 red and 2 black) are here as well as a red wire with a plastic holder at the back. This switch is not working at all - not on or off.

View media item 24749
Finally there is the third and thankfully untouched light switch at the bottom hall stairs. The lights there are on - and I cannot switch them off - so effectively, without being touched this switch is also not currently working!

View media item 24747
2 black wires have a section each and then the two reds are wired into the same hole - not the technical term of course but hope it makes sense!

And finally a side view which may give a clearer view

View media item 24746
I hope that all makes sense and if anyone could shed any light it would be greatly appreciated.

THANK YOU

 

[sparkwright]

Since you used some (albeit misguided) logic to fit the new switches, can you work backwards to put the old switches back as they were?

You could then send photos of the connections.

Alternatively, can you send photos of the backs of both the new and old switches.

 

[LoveRocket]

Thanks for the photos, but please can you explain a bit more clearly which switch controls which light, ie "Switchplate one, LH hand switch = top hall light". Is there a light which is controlled by three switches?

 

[LoveRocket]

OK I'll give it a shot with the photos.

Basically there are three switches involved here.

The first switch is by the front door as you walk in and can switch on the lights in the top hall (you entry in the top landing).

It has TWO black wires and ONE red wire. The original switch on the wall had the black wires wired into two sperate sections at the top which said L1, L2 and then the red wired in at the bottom to an L1. I changed it - it is not working.

The inside looks like this. View media item 24745
This controls only the top hall lights and is currently not working at all.

Put the red in COM and a black each in L1 and L2.

 

[LoveRocket]

The middle switch is at the top of the stairs and I assume the left switch ties in with the top light and the right switch ties in the with the bottom hall light. I have assumed the wiring inside correlates the same way due to the number of wires - switch one has only one red wire as does the set of wires on the left hand side. (I might have explained a bit more clearly in the album).

View media item 24748
and a wider shot - it looks like a lot of wires but only the set of three (2 black 1 red) and then the set of 4 (2 red and 2 black) are here as well as a red wire with a plastic holder at the back. This switch is not working at all - not on or off.

View media item 24749

Right, you probably do have the strappers coming in from the first switch coming in on the lefthand conduit. Connect these the same as the first switch.

You then need to find the live feed and switched live for the top hall light. Once you find them connect them to L1 and L2 - in with the blacks.
We can have an educated guess about which wires these will be but you must specifically tell us what switches control what light!!!

We'll get there....

 

[caledonia77]

Thanks for the photos, but please can you explain a bit more clearly which switch controls which light, ie "Switchplate one, LH hand switch = top hall light". Is there a light which is controlled by three switches?

OK I will explain as best I can.

There is switchplate one next to the front door - this controls ONLY the top hall light. One red wire, two black wires.

Middle switchplate which is further along the hall from Switchplate one - this is a double switch. LH switch = top hall light, RH switch = bottom hall light.
Third switchplate - bottom of stairs - ONLY controls the bottom hall light. This has two red wires and two black wires.

No light controlled by three switches.

Two lights in questions

Top Hall light is contolled by First Switchplate and left hand switch of Middle switch plate.

Bottom Hall light is controlled by Middle switch plate right hand side switch and Thirdswitch plate.

I hope that all makes sense

 

[caledonia77]

The middle switch is at the top of the stairs and I assume the left switch ties in with the top light and the right switch ties in the with the bottom hall light. I have assumed the wiring inside correlates the same way due to the number of wires - switch one has only one red wire as does the set of wires on the left hand side. (I might have explained a bit more clearly in the album).

View media item 24748
and a wider shot - it looks like a lot of wires but only the set of three (2 black 1 red) and then the set of 4 (2 red and 2 black) are here as well as a red wire with a plastic holder at the back. This switch is not working at all - not on or off.

View media item 24749

Right, you probably do have the strappers coming in from the first switch coming in on the lefthand conduit. Connect these the same as the first switch.

You then need to find the live feed and switched live for the top hall light. Once you find them connect them to L1 and L2 - in with the blacks.
We can have an educated guess about which wires these will be but you must specifically tell us what switches control what light!!!

We'll get there....

THANK YOU SO MUCH

I hope my explanation about what controls what above makes sense - so the left hand side wires in the middle switch plate are the wires from the first switch plate which I had already assumed given there is only one red and two black wires.

So this side (relating to top hall light) I should be wiring the red into the com and the black wires one each into L1 and L2?

Now the right hand side wires are two red and two black - and I need to work out which is the live feed and which is the switch feed - this I imagine is the tricky bit??

 

[caledonia77]

"Right, you probably do have the strappers coming in from the first switch coming in on the lefthand conduit. Connect these the same as the first switch"

The problem being switchplate one I've prob wired all wrong too as it'snot working either!

It was originally wired into a single switch which had four holes on the back - black wires at the top in a hole each and the red wire on its own in the bottm. Thats not the proper technical terms - I am not at the house just now so I can't get the technical terms - although to be honest the black of the original switchplates don't say very much other than Ashley - the manufacturers name.

My new switchplate back has a com and an L1 and an L2 - so do I put the red in the com and the blacks in L1 and L2 as I will be the middleswitch plate? Ok blonde question alert - but does the same black wire need to go in L1 and L2 at both switchplates??

I am sorry for asking which probably seem rather dumb questions! I have been pretty luck with the switches so far clearly - they have pretty much all been red wires and I have easily been able to match the wires with how they were placed before. Clealry having no problems gave me some unmerrited confidence

However obviously these three switch plates with a mixture of red and black have flumoxed me - apologies!! Women eh!!