Unvented Cylinder - Discharge pipe position

[james75]

Arrived home to a snotty letter from my neighbour this evening.

I live in a link-detached house, with my garage to the right of the property and my neighbours' garage to the left.

(Please see pics for details)

In August 2008 I had an unvented cylinder installed in the airing cupboard, all proper and above board with a corgi building regs certificate for the work.

The discharge pipe from the expansion vessel was run out the left side of my house and down to the wall to the ground. Just beyond that area is a gutter which runs along the entrance to my neighbours' garage.

Just before the jubilee weekend my neighbour noticed that the pipe had released water. There was a puddle in the area, with some water making its way beyond the guttering and under his garage door (making a puddle on his garage floor).

Obviously, this isn't supposed to happen - it's a safety pipe and shouldn't as a rule be dispensing water. My plumber has fixed the problem now, something to do with the expansion vessel losing pressure (though it may need the rubber diaphragm inside replacing if it loses pressure again).

Anyway, back to the snotty letter. Said neighbour has been to citizens advice and is now insisting that:

a) He should have been asked before the pipe was placed there.

b) The plumber did not have authority to carry out the work and access his property and was trespassing (i.e. treading on his driveway to access the side of my house).

c) The water will create a slip hazard in the winter. (Puddle was about 1.5ft from the wall, max)

d) Downpipes should be situated over the owners property only.

e) Although the pipe is attached to the side of my house, it is invading his "Air Space".

And so, he wants me to have the pipe re-positioned either to the other side of my house, or to the back. This would involve pulling up the carpets and baseboards upstairs.

I hope the photos will allow someone to help me out. I don't know enough about property law to know whether he's correct in what he's saying. In reality, he hasn't said a word about it for 4 years. I asked my plumber about it and his response was that he thought it was ok and that the roof sticks out further than the pipe does in his direction.

We aren't on speaking terms so I can't talk to him about it, I will get a lawyer, but just trying to get an early indication from the helpful people on here first.

He's been harassing my wife by text message over and over about it, she's not very impressed.

P.S. The lead is from the sky dish, there before I moved in.

James View media item 47040 View media item 47041 View media item 47042 View media item 47043

 

[^woody^]

(a) and (b) are by-the-by now unless the plumber caused damage to the neighbours property

Assuming that that there are no quirky clauses in the property deeds, then the pipes would be committing a trespass, and are on the neighbours property.

It does not matter about the roof overhang, the boundary goes up the wall and then around the overhanging roof - so the plumber was wrong to assume that it was OK to fix the pipes in the roof's shadow

The neighbour can ask for their relocation, but if you refused he would have to go to court - where I would suspect that due to the time period elapsed, it would be probable that a court would order a financial settlement (ie compensation) and you be granted an "equitable easement" for the pipes to remain

But in any case, the pipe should be routed to discharge into that nearby drain

You can tell him to stop sending text messages, or that could be deemed harassment. Advise him that you are seeking professional advice and will respond in due course

 

[james75]

Thanks. What about the existing white drain pipe though? That's in a similar position.

One of his other arguments was that if he were to try and sell his house, the pipe would cause trouble at the time of survey? Also, he argued that if he wanted to bring his garage forward, he couldn't.

He's well known for driving neighbours away by constantly complaining about things. You mention compensation - do you know what kind of figure that might involve and under what grounds/justification?

 

[^woody^]

The existing overflow pipe, if there as part of the original build, would have an implied easement so would be acceptable

Any compensation would be based on his loss or potential loss. A typical argument is that yes it could "potentially" cause a problem if he wants to build or extend. Compensation would be based on that.

Your legal advisor may be able to help with figures, as it would be based on past precedent cases. You would counter his argument by citing why it would not prevent him extending or cause him additional expense to mitigate any compensation

A court could well be annoyed if he bought a case to it over such a trivial matter, and give him a token figure. But whatever the case, compensation may be much less than any legal costs incurred on the way

Best to try, via your Solicitor, to make an offer to him, and get an easement added to the deeds. It wont look good if he pursues it to court by being unreasonable

 

[james75]

Thanks for your replies, very helpful.

If the copper pipe was re-routed to run over to the existing white drainpipe, or in the other direction and around the back corner of my house before heading downward, do you think that would be argument proof?

Thanks again.

 

[mikric]

Oh ffs, sorry about your problem.
1. If water is getting in his garage his aco drain aint working.
2. What about your WC overflow if you do re route it will he want this moving.
3. There will only ever be a discharge from this pipe if there is a problem with the system, it is a safety back up and not likely to be constantly flowing.
4. Perhaps you need to seek legal advise, personally I would tell him to feck off after 4 years and tell him to remove his lead flashing from your wall.
5. Personally I would not worry about it at this stage, citizens advise will know sod all about such issues and will have just given some guidance on writing to you.
6. And texting your Mrs aint on either.

 

[james75]

I know, it's total madness to me. He's a real busy body with too much time on his hands.

What I really feel like doing this evening is ripping his letter to bits and posting it through his letter box.

 

[^woody^]

If the copper pipe was re-routed to run over to the existing white drainpipe, or in the other direction and around the back corner of my house before heading downward, do you think that would be argument proof?

The issue is that anything you have sticking out off your wall since the property was originally built, could potentially be a trespass. Yes its trivial, and yes he may be an idiot, but that would be the legal position

Whether the issue is just the water on his drive, and re-routing would be acceptable to him is something you need to find out. Otherwise it may be that you either remove the pipe or compensate.

Or just ignore him for as long as you care to

It's your wall however, so if you wanted to paint a big FU on it, you could do so, and by the same token, he could not touch it or cover it

You may have legal cover on your house insurance, so check that before paying for a Solicitor

 

[liaoen88]

Your legal advisor may be able to help with figures, as it would be based on past precedent cases. You would counter his argument by citing why it would not prevent him extending or cause him additional expense to mitigate any compensation

 

[catlad]

If your plumber had just followed the line of the lead flashing and dropped it in the gutter you may not be having this discussion.

 

[trollmaster2000]

You should plunder his gold, burn his livestock, and salt his land. This is how I settle all neighbourly disputes.

 

[OwainDIYer]

Reply saying

"in view of the possible legal implications of your letter and to avoid any neighbour dispute arising, I am unwilling to consider your comments unless I receive a letter from your solicitor outlining the legal basis for your arguments and confirming that you have received proper legal advice.

Any claim arising will be rigorously defended and I shall hold you liable for all costs arising.

Quod ultra denied."


That puts the ball firmly back into his court and if he goes to see a solicitor (a) he will have to pay (b) he will be advised not to pursue frivolous claims.

 

[james75]

Thanks.

That's pretty much what I said, except I did it by knocking on his door.

I said; "get yourself a lawyer, and I'll get a better one."

 

[james75]

Ok, so he's now got himself a lawyer. I thought I'd heard the last of it!

Letter arrived today. It also contains 4 photos from the time the discharge pipe, erm, discharged:

1. Pic of small puddle at the entrance to his garage.
2. Pic of wet area outside his garage (2ft approx).
3. Pic of BACK of MY house where there used to be an overflow pipe protruding from the roof soffits (removed during my loft conversion).
4. Pic of BACK of HIS house where there still is an overflow pipe in said soffits.

Those overflow pipes are nothing to do with the argument. Our house has always had the white overflow pipe hanging over his driveway since it was built (for the en-suite). I suspect he thinks it is new and that it was moved there from the back in the roof!

The solicitor's (DWF) letter goes on about paying his costs plus a "success" fee if they win, so I assume they are acting on a NWNF basis for him. The letter is full of inaccuracies and things that aren't very likely to happen.

What I plan to do, is to have the copper discharge pipe (which, by the way hasn't leaked a drop since the problem was fixed) re-routed along the wall to the front of our house, behind the existing big white drainpipe, around the corner to the front of the house and then downward onto our lawn.

There was no mention of "airspace" in this recent letter, so I'm hoping that might be enough to make things OK.

Then, I'm going to kick up a fuss, saying that the WHITE overflow pipe can't be moved, I won't move it, he'll have to take me to court, etc, etc, in an effort to get him to pay to get us all to court and then watch him LOSE because that overflow was there when Barratt built the house and is noted in the deeds. (By the way, the Deeds give Barratt homes right to go onto his driveway to make any repairs to this property - would that right fall down to me when we bought the house?).

And that's it really. So, although the said pipe, once re-routed, would still be on the side of our house, it would run along and around to our front before heading downwards.

I'm going to have to check with (chartered surveyor or some other prop law expert) that re-routing the pipe in this way will be sufficient protection for us against legal action. The alternative means pulling up fitted wardrobes, then nailed-down floorboards, then heading out to the back of the house - a real pain.

Any thoughts on my plan?

James

 

[xdave]

James, I am so sorry that you are living next to someone who is so unreasonable. If your neighbour sees the only way to address this perceieved problem is to try and force his way through with letters rather than just knocking on your door and inviting you over to talk about it then it is clear that he is not a reasonable person. It is sad because I bet if he had done so in a friendly manner then you would probably have accomodated him. Some people have absolutely no idea how to treat others when they want to get something in return. Anyway... little rant over...

All this arguing over what looks like a 22mm pipe which was at least thoughtfully and neatly installed?

When my boiler was replaced I had a similar pipe installed but mine was taken to the gutter downpipe and connected via a rubber grommet directly into the side of it. Can you not do the same? Your downpipe will have an easement to be there, and you could carry it with only a small fall from its existing position across to your downpipe. Even if the pipe was judged to be trespassing (which is unlikely to be enforcable given it is less than an inch) then it is highly unlikely there would be any financial costs awarded to your neighbour.

I would write a reply to him (or get your solicitor to) stating that you have considered his request regarding abating the nuisance and after seeking legal advice have concluded that there is no need to act at this time and that if in the future the pipe and cable prevent him from enlarging his garage forward that you will be happy to relocate them both at the same time as he pays you to move the toilet overflow pipe.

Then write to him separately requesting access to repair your damaged verge board that is missing above his garage roof, and to adjust your gutter downpipe. Point out that you need urgent access to prevent the tiles/slates falling onto his property and potentially causing damage. If he refuses this access then I don't believe you could be held liable for damage if you notified him of the risk and offered to put it right at your cost. It would be a useful refusal to have should he ever try and pursue court action because you can show that your reasonable requests to resolve problems have been refused. If he does allow you access then simply redirect the copper pipe into the gutter as mentioned above, and your agreement for access would cover that if you word it correctly. Your neighbour cannot allow you to do something with knowledge of it and them complain afterwards.

Personally though I would leave the pipe exactly where it is. It is a safety device designed to protect human life and your property. I understand that your neighbour is complaining about the time it discharged and left a small pool of water on his drive that ran into his garage and that he might slip on it? Ignoring the fact that the drive should not allow any water to pool, and that his aco drain should prevent any surface water ingress, what exactly does this neighbour plan to do when it rains on a cold night? Or if your toilet cistern overflows in exactly the same position on his drive? You could help him along by accidentally adjusting your toilet valve so it trickles down the overflow - not much, just a few drops every minute. There will be a nice crop of moss growing at the foot of the wall within a month. (Don't actually do that, it is far too petty, but then so are his claims.)

I would advise you to post this problem on the garden law forums if you have not already done so. Amongst all the you and I's who post on there there are a handful of experts as well and you will generally receive good advice.