Water Damaged Joists in En Suite

[Doughman]

Hi Everybody,

I have recently moved in to a new property (top floor flat) and set about making it home. One of the things I wanted to do was re-do the whole en suite to suit. Today I had a contractor in to remove the old shower tray and fit a new one and he gave me a severely depressing phone call while I was in work.

He told me there is extensive water damage/damp/wet rot in the joists of the en suite and to one stud partition wall. He said he can patch it all up and fit the new shower etc but this will come back to haunt me further down the line as this stuff will spread. I should say that none of the wood feels wet to touch. It is black and kind of fluffy/hairy in parts and some is ridiculously brittle.

He said to do it properly he would have it all cut out and normally you would go a metre back from the damage to ensure every bit is cut out. It's a small room so this would effectively be the whole room's floor being lifted and the joists re-done and one wall completely re-done too.

I've been on to my insurance, who from their conditions don't cover damage from 'poor craftmanship, poor materials or failure of sealing/sealant' but do cover damage from 'escape of water' so we will see where that leaves me.

My contractor reckons the re-work, parts and labour, could be the bones of £3000 work.
I've attached pictures.

I have heard nothing from my downstairs neighbour about any damage etc to her ceiling. I'm unsure how badly any rework will affect her, if at all.

Does everything I've been told seem in order to everyone? I have no idea with this stuff. Does the damage from the pictures tie in with what I have said, does the re-work price seem right? I reckon it's been caused by poor sealing of the shower but there's no way of really knowing.

 

[vinn]

Remove all the insulation to another room, and clear up the debris then take and post some more pics showing the whole bathroom.
Presumably you also have a pedestal basin and a WC in the bathroom?

The construction and plumbing appear to have been a shaky DIY job - what about the waste's and the electrics?

The some of the bottom plates in the framing look to be wet rotted, and perhaps there's some other kind of rot present.
Is there a floor joist below that severely damaged LH bottom plate - is it rotted out as well?
Why not, right now, tear out the LH plate and pic & post what you expose?
There is an original sub-floor of ply and an higher floor of chipboard.
Lifting some of the damaged ply (if its necessary) might be tricky given the ply will probably run under the partition walls - but it can be done by cutting and nogging for support.
There's also ply backing on the stud framing.

Without knowing the extent of the damage and the standard required for the new finish its impossible to talk costs.

 

[Doughman]

Remove all the insulation to another room, and clear up the debris then take and post some more pics showing the whole bathroom. I will do this tomorrow and post the results. It's difficult to get pictures showing the whole place as it's such a small room but I shall try.
Presumably you also have a pedestal basin and a WC in the bathroom? Yes. The sink is just visible in one of the pictures.

The construction and plumbing appear to have been a shaky DIY job - what about the waste's and the electrics? Yet to be checked out although I've had no issues with the waste pipes and the electrics were all signed off and certified when I bought the place.

The some of the bottom plates in the framing look to be wet rotted, and perhaps there's some other kind of rot present.
Is there a floor joist below that severely damaged LH bottom plate - is it rotted out as well?
Why not, right now, tear out the LH plate and pic & post what you expose? I'm sorry but I don't follow what an LH plate is. I am a rank amateur at this stuff. I assume you mean the wood under the exposed plastic pipes? If so I haven't lifted this yet. I am a bit apprehensive about going too far into the roof of the tenant below. Is there likely to be any problems trying to lift this plate? It's down pretty firmly.
There is an original sub-floor of ply and an higher floor of chipboard.
Lifting some of the damaged ply (if its necessary) might be tricky given the ply will probably run under the partition walls - but it can be done by cutting and nogging for support.
There's also ply backing on the stud framing.

Without knowing the extent of the damage and the standard required for the new finish its impossible to talk costs. Appreciated. I am really hoping he was giving me absolute worst case scenario. I'm also hoping insurance will cover.

In a new development, the guy I bought the property from who also built the flats and still owns others in the building has expressed an interest in having a look at what I've found. Hopefully get him in soon to witness the above.

 

[Doggit]

The plumbers right in that it can't be left, as it will come back to haunt you in spades, but £3K sounds a bit high, although is this for the repairs, or the whole plumbing job. You first need to strip everything out to ascertain how far the damage goes. If it's a recent development, then it's more than likely that the contractors did a shoddy job, but that doesn't mean that you can get him to pay for the repairs. He may come to an accommodation with you, but this might mean using his builders who caused the problems in the first place.

The insurance company will very likely argue that it's caused by poor workmanship, but I wonder if you can call on liability insurance of the original developers.

The hairy bits are very likely wet rot that's gone to dry rot as it's dried out, and this will need spraying with dry rot treatment over the whole area to make sure it doesn't spread. You'd only need to go a metre further if it was brickwork, but with wood, you just cut out and replace the damaged stuff, and then spray everything liberally with the treatment. To be honest, I think the plumber knows roughly what to do, but may not be the best person for the job.

Get some more quotes.

 

[vinn]

LH or RH mean which hand.

Clean up and expose a little more on the LH but dont yet attempt to go into the floor(s) or remove any studding.

There are no obvious indications of dry rot per se, & until things are fully exposed its alarmist to jump the gun - there are many less aggressive forms of fungal attack.

AAMOI, best practice treatment for dry rot says cutback the timber for approx 1m beyond the last damage. Nothing is recommended for cutting back 1m of brickwork? How would that work?

OP,
in your case no need for alarm its doubtful that much "cutting back" is needed.
After posting pics of the exposed damage it might be necessary to have a look in the flat below - but the odds are that if any fungal or water damage or stains had penetrated her ceiling she would have informed you by now. So let sleeping dogs lie.
As before: no professional joiner or plumber would have done that job.

 

[Doggit]

Nothing is recommended for cutting back 1m of brickwork

If the rot is near brickwork. or attached to any, then standard recommendation is to hack of the plaster (as the dry rot seems to track behind it) spray the wall, and then replaster.

There are no obvious indications of dry rot per se

The OPs description of it being black, hairy and ridiculously brittle are the classic indicators of dry rot, but you're right when you say there's no need to be alarmed; dry rots just a case of cutting out, spraying, and then reinstating.

 

[vinn]

Your information is wrong and misleading - simply picking up bits of technical detail from the internet, and then repeating them in a rather confused manner is not exactly good advice.

First, your early reference was to "spraying" the "brickwork" - no mention of hacking off plaster.

Next, "but with wood, you just cut out and replace the damaged stuff, and spray everything liberally".
No mention of cutting back 1m or any other sanitary distance. You repeat this error in your second post.

"Dry rot" is caused by a particular fungus that needs a supply of water, it is not caused by "wet rot as it dries out".
The "black, hairy .. brittle" condition is common to many kinds of fungal infection, it is not simply a "classic indicator of dry rot".

Why you chose to enlarge from the particular situation in the OP's post, & talk incoherently about circumstances that had no bearing on the bathroom in the pic I dont know, given that some of your other posts contain useful information.

 

[Doggit]

I've dealt with dry rot often enough to feel that I know what I'm doing. Dry rot is often a result of the wood being overly wet in the first place, then as the wood dries, the fungal infection set in, and sucks the moisture out of the wood, causing it to become brittle. Now as we're doing a remote diagnostic, I could well be wrong on the type of fungal infection, but that's not overly important, as most treatments will deal with a large variety of fungai. The reason that I expanded the information, was to show that the information - IMO - given by the plumber was indicative of him knowing the generalities of treating wood rot, but not necessarily a lot of experience in doing so.

 

[vinn]

If you knew what you were doing you wouldn't have made such elementary mistakes as above.

I wont answer your further incoherent and illogical post in piecemeal detail but I would suggest that you stop now - you are digging yourself a hole.

 

[Doggit]

All I can do is sit here an laugh Vinn; I could be rude to you, but it's not really worth it. I may not know what I'm doing, but none of the rot that I've treated has returned, so I must be muddling through somehow, so I'll just carry on doing it wrongly. I have no problem putting my head above the parapet, and being told that there's a better way of doing it, or that I'm wrong in my assertions, but just putting someone down achieves very little to the discussion, or even to the OPs learning curve. Where's your Christmas spirit.

 

[vinn]

I'm not being "rude" - I'm being straightforward, have I been disrespectful or curt by simply repeating back to you what you had previously claimed?
Do you consider anyone and everyone who corrects you as "rude"?
Whereas you have not taken the trouble to simply admit that you are wrong and get on with it.
Instead you have ducked and dived while claiming that "you have no problem ... being told that you are wrong"?

Its not a matter of your confused rudeness about "Christmas spirit" or "assertions" or self-pitying poor me's, & its not a discussion - its about technical points that flat out say that you are wrong. I challenged you on technical grounds & you had no technical answers.

If I'm technically wrong then tell me how, and I'll hold my hands up?

 

[Doughman]

Might have went overkill on the photos. Tried to tidy the area up a little. Taking away the insulation at the back has revealed some water damage along the bottom of the board. It also looks water damaged along the bottom of the board toward the door frame to me.

Does all the white coloured staining indicate dry rot?

I hope you can tell the size of the bathroom from the photos. As an indication, there is less than a metre to the wall at the other side of the door, it can't fully open.

I think I need to leave it as is until my home insurance send out someone to inspect and decide if they will pay. I'm also still working on getting the developer who I bought the flat off out to look at it. As I mentioned before he still owns and rents out the flat below mine so it's still hugely in his interest. If my insurance won't do it, I'm also interested in exploring his liability insurance for the structure of the building. It's with CRL who seem to cover damage to joists etc.

After that, should my next step be to have the toilet and sink taken out, lift all the lino and ply and check the entire floor?

The staining on the plasterboard where the shower pipes are running through were completely covered with plasterboard when I moved in. So I'm at a loss as to how it is so bad on that corner which should have been further away from potential escape of water than most surfaces we can see.

I should say the shower hasn't been used in nearly a month previous to all this being revealed.

 

[Doughman]

Got the developer of the flats, who is also the guy I bought the flat from 6 weeks ago and the owner of the flat directly below, coming out to look at this tonight.
I want him to chase it with CRL who the liability insurance is with. They look like they cover structural defects including joist work.

I do not want him to undertake any of the rework required though. Would much prefer it was done independent of us both to save any future hassle/problems.

From what we can all see above, does it like indicative of dry rot? Roughly back to where the door frame is?

This is the only direction of spread of rot I can check at the moment, is there a strong possibility it has infected the joists in all 4 directions? (Under 3 other rooms)

 

[vinn]

OP,
Thanks for the fresh pics and info.

But stop with the dry rot business that was foolishly introduced into your thread - there are no specific indications of dry rot.

Before the developer arrives:
On the LH side remove the remaining plasterboard up to the door lining, and all the remaining insulation.
Lift the panel of chipboard above the pipes.
Very carefully check for leaks behind the WC soil pipe connection area, and around the cistern.

Ask in the elec forum for views on the elec device on the back wall?
Unless its accessible, compression shouldn't be used for the shower waste - use solvent weld.

If the developer goes to the flat below to inspect for possible damage signs then go with him.
Write down what he has said immediately after he's left.

 

[Doughman]

Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately he is coming round roughly 20 minutes after I return home tonight and the latest pictures are the current state of the en suite. I'm not going to have time to do these things before he has a look.

I will endevaour to get them done ASAP though. Taking the plasterboard back to the door and removing the insulation should be easy. Lifting the chipboard might be more difficult. I'm quite apprehensive of removing more of the floor before the plumber has disconnected the sink and WC.
I haven't noticed any leakage issues around the toilet but I suppose most of the pipework is hidden away behind the black plastic lining. I'll remove all of that as well and have a check.

Is it a good idea to do all this before the insurer's (either mine or the developer's (CRL)) have sent someone out to see the damage?

I should have mentioned previously that the flat's are only 6 year old, and the CRL cover is in place of NHBC.

Good call on the last two points.
I'm expecting him to offer to repair and fix all damage and just trying to have my reply ready for him.