Welding socket needed for 17th edition board?

[skotl]

Is it frowned upon to mention other forums? I frequently refer people on http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/ over here for questions on electrics...

 

[skotl]

Don't be distracted by thoughts of oil or (less likely) water cooling - getting decent airflow in a MIG welder is 90% of the battle.

That makes sense. I don't know, but would have suspected, that even if one did have oil (or water) cooling, one would probably still need a fan. Isn't that the case?

Kind Regards, John

Olde worlde arc welders could be oil-cooled, or very high-end / high-duty welders. Nowadays tho, as you might expect, moving a large quantity of air across the transformer is an easier, more portable (you're supposed to empy oil-cooled welders before transporting them) and cheaper method.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

MIG welders will be air-cooled all the way up to the £2k / £3k and beyond, and most professional MIG and TIG welders will be air-cooled (qualification; with a fan, rather than just ambient air).
My argument, which I'm sure you agree with despite your tendency to disagree, is that any welder from 90A upwards should have a fan, otherwise their duty cycle renders them pretty impractical.

I won't disagree with that.

I will point out though that even the cheaper of the two Sealeys - the one you described as having an "awful" duty cycle, has forced air cooling. Possibly deliberately inadequate? I wonder if they use insufficient cooling as a way to make it overheat and cut out, so reducing the excursions above a 13A draw?

I would go further and suggest that the drive toward a "bench-sized" welder is counter to the requirement to encourage good airflow, and I'd expect any MIG welder above 90A to be of the "pull-along" size so that the fan can be large enough and there is enough space to push the air across the transformer and choke.

Both Sealeys have wheels and a pull handle, only the MiniMIG also has a lifting handle, and although at 26kg it's less than ½ the weight of my oil-filled (non-MIG) Oxford welder, I'd be keen not to lift it onto a bench

Don't be distracted by thoughts of oil or (less likely) water cooling - getting decent airflow in a MIG welder is 90% of the battle.

OK - I know you can get water cooled ones, as I did wonder, and I looked - I found what was clearly a high end one, but didn't do any research to see at what sort of price or performance water cooling made an appearance.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

At that price, too, have a look on ebay / classifieds for a used 210A unit,

Almost instinctively I think if I was looking for any tool, not just a welder, where I had a choice between a new, low-end, DIY-market-targetted one or a used, better "pro quality" one, I'd always go for the latter.

but you will definitely need to evaluate the supply to it.
((I'm going to consciously not comment on Westie's advice re notifying the DNO))

Westie's advice is that you need approval even for a weedy one.

 

[aesmith]

Do NOT connect one of them to any supply without the permission of your DNO which is Electricity NorthWest. Tel 08001954141
To do so can risk your supply being disconnected

Do you happen to know how I could find out whether my own DNO makes a similar requirement?

 

[bernardgreen]

Do you happen to know how I could find out whether my own DNO makes a similar requirement?

The best way is to phone them and ask them.
Of course this may alert them to your intentions but rest assured that if your welder affects power to other people in your area then the DNO will respond to complaints from those people.

 

[aesmith]

The best way is to phone them and ask them. Of course this may alert them to your intentions but rest assured that if your welder affects power to other people in your area then the DNO will respond to complaints from those people.

The first bit in bold is my concern, if you go asking permission then it's all too easy for them to say no even if there's no valid reason. Ideally I'd like to see whether there's some agreement already in place either explicitly or by implication that obliges me to notify them.

Regarding the second aspect, I've been using the welder on and off at the current house and at previous houses. I don't think there's the remotest chance that anyone is being affected, it certainly doesn't appear to affect power elsewhere on our own property. We're on a dedicated transformer served by over overhead 11kV in case that's relevant.

So I suppose my position would be that if their terms and conditions obliged me to notify them of anything likely to affect the supply then I'm perfectly in the clear. On the other hand if there was some agreement in force that obliged me to notify just because it's a welder then that's a different matter.

Tony S

 

[bernardgreen]

We're on a dedicated transformer served by over overhead 11kV in case that's relevant.

Yes it is relevant.

 

[westie101]

if you go asking permission then it's all too easy for them to say no even if there's no valid reason

Which you can easily and legally challenge, no the DNOs do NOT do that
(I'm sure all my colleagues in the industry countrywide would be appalled that you are in fact, suggesting we could lie!)

Ideally I'd like to see whether there's some agreement already in place either explicitly or by implication that obliges me to notify them.

Well you see if you look in here then there is a, admittedly vague, condition that you have agreed to by taking a supply of electricity and signing up with a supplier.
But then again it is backed up by The Electricity Act 1989

http://www.connectionterms.org.uk/assets/files/National Terms Of Connection_7 November 2013.pdf

National Terms of Connection
1
07 November2013
NATIONAL TERMS OF CONNECTION
Version 6.0 effective from 07 November 2013
SECTION 1
A.
Introduction:
The electricity that is supplied to, or exported from, the premises is
conveyed using the network of the network operator. In order that electricity can be supplied to, or exported from, the premises, there must be both:

a connection agreement with the network operator to maintain the connection to its network; and

arrangements for the supply, or export, of electricity (usually with an
electricity supplier).

The National Terms of Connection set out the terms and conditions that the network operator requires you to accept in return for maintaining the connection of the premises to its network.
B.
Application to you and the premises:
These terms may apply to you in one of two ways:

If you have entered into a contract with your electricity supplier for the supply of electricity to, or the export of electricity from, a particular premises, you will also have agreed with the network operator to accept these terms in respect of those premises.

This is because your electricity supplier has been appointed as the agent of the network operator to make such an agreement.


If you have not entered into any contract with your network operator in respect of a particular premise, but you are either the owner or occupier (or both the owner and occupier) of those premises, you are required to accept these terms pursuant to section 21 of the Electricity Act 1989 (and you will be taken to have accepted these terms unless and until your premises are permanently disconnected from the network or you agree different terms with your network operator).

Then further down in Section 2 is this catch all condition.

3. Network constraints.
Our obligations under this agreement are subject to the maximum capacity and any other design feature of the connection. You must contact us in advance if you propose to make any significant change to the connection or to the electric lines or electrical equipment at the premises, or if you propose to do anything else that could affect our network or if you require alterations to the connection

[/quote]

 

[westie101]

aesmith wrote:
We're on a dedicated transformer served by over overhead 11kV in case that's relevant.

Yes it is relevant.

It makes a huge difference as the chances of affecting another customer are very low, it also increases the permissible flicker that you might see.

Of course at that don't ring up saying your lights dip everytime you use your welder.

But of course if it is a single transformer you might risk overloading it for short periods as single transformers can be found in sizes from 5kVA upwards!

 

[aesmith]

Well you see if you look in here then there is a, admittedly vague, condition that you have agreed to by taking a supply of electricity and signing up with a supplier.
But then again it is backed up by The Electricity Act 1989

Thanks that's the sort of thing I was looking for. By the way, I wasn't intending to offend you or your colleagues, it's more that in dealings with SSE I've found it sometime hard to get to the correct person who understands my question. I suppose my feeling is that phoning them up to ask if I'm allowed to use a welder is virtually agreeing that I shouldn't do so until I receive their permission.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I suppose my feeling is that phoning them up to ask if I'm allowed to use a welder is virtually agreeing that I shouldn't do so until I receive their permission.

AFAICT it doesn't matter whether you agree or not. You may not use it without their permission, whether you like that or not and whether you ask or not.

 

[aesmith]

AFAICT it doesn't matter whether you agree or not. You may not use it without their permission, whether you like that or not and whether you ask or not.

That's what I was trying to find out. Apparently it's the case for WPD customers, but not necessarily for those of other DNOs. The document linked above doesn't make that requirement.

 

[westie101]

Apparently it's the case for WPD customers, but not necessarily for those of other DNOs

What part of "National Terms of Connection" suggest that?

 

[aesmith]

Apparently it's the case for WPD customers, but not necessarily for those of other DNOs

What part of "National Terms of Connection" suggest that?

If I read correctly the National Terms do not appear to include specific guidance for welders. The word "welder" doesn't appear.

That's in contrast to a DNO specific document shown earlier which did have specific conditions for welders. It wasn't WPD, I don't know why I thought that, but it's not SSE either. My original question was whether any other DNOs had similar specific conditions.