Well done Reform and Trump!

[ellal]

The tory retirement/care home party and the orange rapist have managed to pull off a great move...

The UK is heading slowly back to where it always should be - closer to the EU/Europe!

And it was pretty clear from today's speeches in Munich that things have changed massively...

In that whereas before we needed the EU more than they needed us, it is now the case that we both need each other!

I've stated previously that I wouldn't be surprised if there would be a political party with a proposal to rejoin the EU in their next election manifesto, but now I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than one...

Die hard brexiteers are, well not to put too fine a point on it dying off through natural wastage.
The demographics are also changing further with hopefully 16 year olds being able to vote next time around.

And the more the 'not ready to govern' deform and garbage are put under the spotlight, the more their lies are becoming glaringly obvious and their ratings falling!

The brexitanic may have just shifted enough to avoid the iceberg!

 

[MNW67]

Since the end of the Cold War, Europe and the USA had a deal which worked very well. The USA didn't want Europe to have a strong independent military or a rival defence industry. It was agreed that Europe would not develop its own independent military capability and would remain reliant on joint defence through NATO, under US strategic control. Although this was the USA's idea, it actually suited everyone. Europe spent less on defence but still bought huge amounts of weapons from US defence companies. And it stopped an unnecessary arms race.

 

[MNW67]

The Clinton administration set out three conditions for European defence, called the 'Three D's' Doctrine. These were, no duplication of NATO resources, no decoupling from the USA led alliance, and no discrimination against non-EU NATO members (like Turkey).

Trump is now overturning decades of USA policy. He might save a few pennies in the short term but it is major own goal for the USA in the long term.

 

[Odds]

"ze old world order is dead!"

Says German Chancellor at Munich.

History repeating.

 

[Mottie]

The demographics are also changing further with hopefully 16 year olds being able to vote next time around.

These weren’t the same as that lot of politically motivated educated youngsters that were going to return from uni to vote out the (in your words) nasty party in the 2019 GE were they? Mind telling us what happened there? IIRC, you were so upset with how it turned out that you allegedly made plans for you and your entire family to leave the U.K. and decamp to your partners country. Again, what happened there?

 

[Odds]

“The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters” is a line attributed to the former Italian Communist party leader Antonio Gramsci. Over the last two months alone, it has been quoted – and often mangled – by a rightwing Belgian prime minister, a leftwing British political leader, an Irish central banker and in the title of the most recent BBC Reith lecture, given by the author Rutger Bregman.

(In the original Italian, he wrote: “In questo interregno si verificano i fenomeni morbosi più svariati.”)

It's been going around social media for a few weeks and reminded me of Yeats' 'The Second Coming':

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Trump wants to reshape a new world order - in his image.
Not a pretty sight, nor one to give any thought of peace as we seemingly stumble into another war.

In his speech at Munich, Sir Keir Starmer quoted former British foreign secretary Sir Edward Grey, stating that the "lamps would go out across Europe once again" if Reform UK or the Green Party were to win power. A tad dramatic, you might think, but considering the atmosphere surrounding the conference, a timely reminder of what's at stake.

 

[MNW67]

Trump has given new impetus to the EU project. The opposite of what he intended.

 

[Mottie]

Swerve.

You've been told the reason, but you can't just accept that...

The reasons kept changing according to you. What reason, sorry, excuse, did you finally settle on?

 

[ellal]

Since the end of the Cold War, Europe and the USA had a deal which worked very well. The USA didn't want Europe to have a strong independent military or a rival defence industry. It was agreed that Europe would not develop its own independent military capability and would remain reliant on joint defence through NATO, under US strategic control. Although this was the USA's idea, it actually suited everyone. Europe spent less on defence but still bought huge amounts of weapons from US defence companies. And it stopped an unnecessary arms race.

But de Gaulle was proved right, and that is why France stayed independent of the US...

 

[MNW67]

But de Gaulle was proved right, and that is why France stayed independent of the US...

Yes, that is true.

Trump has left us in a terrible mess. He is a fool. But what is done is done. The question now is how fast can Europe move on. Germany has already massively increased arms production. The UK and Germany, acting together, could have a great arms industry. Bring in the Swedes, Poland and others.

 

[ellal]

Yes, that is true.

Trump has left us in a terrible mess. He is a fool. But what is done is done. The question now is how fast can Europe move on. Germany has already massively increased arms production. The UK and Germany, acting together, could have a great arms industry. Bring in the Swedes, Poland and others.

It's sad that we now have to think of spending more on weapons when that inevitably means less to spend on people's day to day needs...

That's why I welcome the intention of closer EU ties because it may start to reverse the massive financial loss year on year that has been caused by brexit...

(Die hard brexiteers will of course deny that loss until their dying breath!)

 

[MNW67]

It's sad that we now have to think of spending more on weapons when that inevitably means less to spend on people's day to day needs...

That's why I welcome the intention of closer EU ties because it may start to reverse the massive financial loss year on year that has been caused by brexit...

(Die hard brexiteers will of course deny that loss until their dying breath!)

Die hard Brexiteers often overlap with die hard Trump supporters. Many seem to be enjoying the destruction of our country's defence arrangements.

 

[blup]

Good to see Kieth - who I’m no fan of - going out on the front foot on European integration. both economic and defence. The right wing pootin apologists (including that Re from spy) must be terrified at the prospect of a safer and more prosperous UK.

 

[Mottie]

You have a very sad life!

Yeah, ********************************************

 

[MNW67]

Good to see Kieth - who I’m no fan of - going out on the front foot on European integration. both economic and defence. The right wing pootin apologists (including that Re from spy) must be terrified at the prospect of a safer and more prosperous UK.

Integration is now the only thing which makes sense. Brexiteers put all their eggs in the USA basket. That has blown up in their faces. Many still don't seem to appreciate what Trump's new world order means.