What are modern joinery/woodworking shops looking like nowadays?

[teaboyjim]

What type of machinery do you find in a joiners modern workshop?

Do they still use the standard machines
Spindle moulder
Tenoning machine
Circular saw
Planer and Thicknesser
4 sided planer
Bandsaw

 

[sxturbo]

as above, just now its all cnc machines

 

[Deleted member 174758]

So called "classic" machines are still in use in smaller shops however bigger outfits have invested in technology meaning that sheet material is often broken down on CNC beam saws, panel production is on point-to-point CNC machining centres, window and door components are produced either on CNC pod bed routers or CNC window centres (combined 2 axis multi spindle moulders, sometimes with planer units), etc. This has spread downwards to even medium sized shops doing repetitive work and 4-siders for producing mouldings and sections are a lot more common in smaller shops than they once were

Wadkin have gone under 3 or 4 times in the last 25 years and whilst still around they produce a very limited range of kit (these days owned by a Nottingham based machinery dealer, I believe, and based at Coalville having lost their Green Lane site). Sedgwick have only ever made small shop stuff, so whilst you might find one of their rip saws in a big place, that would be about it

 

[teaboyjim]

So called "classic" machines are still in use in smaller shops however bigger outfits have invested in technology meaning that sheet material is often broken down on CNC beam saws, panel production is on point-to-point CNC machining centres, window and door components are produced either on CNC pod bed routers or CNC window centres (combined 2 axis multi spindle moulders, sometimes with planer units), etc. This has spread downwards to even medium sized shops doing repetitive work and 4-siders for producing mouldings and sections are a lot more common in smaller shops than they once were
Wadkin have gone under 3 or 4 times in the last 25 years and whilst still around they produce a very limited range of kit (these days owned by a Nottingham based machinery dealer, I believe, and based at Coalville having lost their Green Lane site). Sedgwick have only ever made small shop stuff, so whilst you might find one of their rip saws in a big place, that would be about it

I suppose the way of the future is in automated machines to a certain extent.

 

[HERTS P&D]

How many threads have you started since Nov?

Andy

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Wadkin went down the pan for the first time after it was acquired by Thomas Robinson (which to all intents and purposes Nigel Rudd and co then allegedly asset stripped, or so it appears to outsiders).

They then went off and bought up almost everyone else still extant in the UK industry including Dominion (classic machines), Fell (lathes), Calder Woodworking (saw mills, second hand machinery), etc. Only a few independants survived, like Sedgwick (classic machinery, privately owned) and Record Power (who had taken over part of the Startrite brand but retained only small handsaws and drill presses).

Many other firms had fallen by the wayside in the late 1970s and early 1980s including Wilson Brothers (saw mills, specialist machinery and spindle moulders at the end), Thomas White (by the 1980s owned by an aerospace firm and making only Timesaver wide belt sanders under licence on Cleckheaton), Cooksley (now a housing estate) and Interwood (now a brand name owned by a machinery dealer).

The end result was a diminished Wadkin (name now owned by Daltons) with other brand names being sold off - Bursgreen machines (once part of J Sagar) are rebadged Rojeks whilst Dominions are rebadged Chinese junk. They also sold off the fabrication works, one of the most modern in Europe at the time (Evenwood), shut both the Bursgreen plants (Colne and Houghton-le-Spring), disposed of the bandsaw factory in Scarborough and sold their interests in Titman (router tooling - they still exist, Clacton)

So ended the British woodworking machinery industry - poorly managed, lacking investment in manufacturing or research whilst producing expensive machines that were out of date in many cases.

And people think Brexit will go well....

...not if British management and the City continue the way they have done for the last 50 years

/Rant off

 

[Why Not Indeed]

I suppose that's the future which is similar to what you'd find at IKEA production factories. I expect the machinery is fabulously expensive though

The price of highly automated woodworking machinery is only going in one direction and will eventually be in reach of the enthusiast/small shop. Half the job of making things out of timber is going to be coding, before long! Who knows, it might even lead to more manufacturing of timber products coming back on shore if the labour element of the price is reduced due to automation.

 

[teaboyjim]

Wadkin went down the pan for the first time after it was acquired by Thomas Robinson (which to all intents and purposes Nigel Rudd and co then allegedly asset stripped, or so it appears to outsiders). They then went off and bought up almost everyone else still extant in the UK industry including Dominion (classic machines), Fell (lathes), Calder Woodworking (saw mills, second hand machinery), etc. Only a few independants survived, like Sedgwick (classic machinery, privately owned) and Record Power (who had taken over part of the Startrite brand but retained only small handsaws and drill presses).

You must be talking about this phase being from the 70's and 80's

 

[teaboyjim]

The price of highly automated woodworking machinery is only going in one direction and will eventually be in reach of the enthusiast/small shop. Half the job of making things out of timber is going to be coding, before long! Who knows, it might even lead to more manufacturing of timber products coming back on shore if the labour element of the price is reduced due to automation.

With automation it means that the labour costs aren't so important

 

[Notch7]

What type of machinery do you find in a joiners modern workshop or a joinery factory?

Do they still use the standard machines
Spindle moulder
Tenoning machine
Circular saw
Planer and Thicknesser
4 sided planer
Bandsaw

Or do most of them now have CNC computerized machinery to do the woodwork?
Do people still use the old heavy Wadkin machines? Are Sedgwick still popular?

Most joinery shops have a Wadkin lurking about.

Ive been fettling a Wadkin BZB today. The muppet that bought it 2 years ago didn't know how to set the blade guides....first time he used it it bluntened one side of the blade and wouldn't cut straight.....I got it set up today and used it to cut out box sash chill notches....it cut accurate to 0.3mm

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Half the job of making things out of timber is going to be coding, before long!

I doubt that because nobody hand codes any more - and few people running CNC machining centres seem to understand much G and M code these days, instead that has all been swept away by CADCAM applications which can automatically convert AutoCAD and other drawings to G and M code and can even optimally nest components (on flat bed machines) whilst on pod bed equipment there has been a move towards automatic vacuum pod positioning for many years now.

 

[Notch7]

What type of machinery do you find in a joiners modern workshop or a joinery factory?

Do they still use the standard machines
Spindle moulder
Tenoning machine
Circular saw
Planer and Thicknesser
4 sided planer
Bandsaw

Or do most of them now have CNC computerized machinery to do the woodwork?
Do people still use the old heavy Wadkin machines? Are Sedgwick still popular?

So the small joinery company I'm helping to get going has classical machines:

Tenoner
Surface planer
4 sider
Wadkin BzbBandsaw
Wadkin EP spindle moulder......probably 1950s machine.

Modern window tooling blocks.


Wadkin machines are still widely used in joinery companies, the older machines have cast bodies, extremely heavy construction and well engineered with heavy duty bearings.


Old machines have no numeric read outs so setting up is trial and error.

New machines tend to have digital read outs for repeatable settings.


The way to become more productive is either through CNC routers or using Classical machinery like a spindle moulder but with programmable control. It used to have a spindle with 2 axis control - to set fence position and spindle height.

 

[teaboyjim]

Most joinery shops have a Wadkin lurking about. Ive been fettling a Wadkin BZB today. The muppet that bought it 2 years ago didn't know how to set the blade guides....first time he used it it bluntened one side of the blade and wouldn't cut straight.....I got it set up today and used it to cut out box sash chill notches....it cut accurate to 0.3mm

It's not just being able to use those machines it's being able to set them up and manage them and replace the blades etc

 

[teaboyjim]

The way to become more productive is either through CNC routers or using Classical machinery like a spindle moulder but with programmable control. It used to have a spindle with 2 axis control - to set fence position and spindle height.

Even a small shop could gain a level of economy of scale that way if they did longer runs of work

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Does Dalton actually own Wadkin or just sell Wadkin machinery? They used to have lots of refurbished machinery some of it was very old but people would prefer the older heavier stuff because of it's longevity

Dalton's bought the name designs, trademark and intellectual property rights of Wadkin the last time they went under. They manufacture a small range of classic machines as well as badging a few imports.

For decades, since the 1960s, Wadkin had imported many of the more high tech bits of kit they sold and marketed them under the "Wadkin Agencies" banner. In particular I recall them selling Weinig 4-siders as an alternative (cheaper, lighter, faster) than their own heavyweight machinery as well as both Casadei and Lurem kit They weren't alone in the UK, for example Startrite sold SCM kit for a long time under their own name and later on (after SCM had opened their own operation here) sold Robland kit rebranded "Startrite" whilst Interwood were another firm whon rested on their laurels and sold imported kit (in their case Altendorf, etc)

As to refurbishing old machines, there is a limit to what you can do in a cost effective manner. Most old machines lack adequate guarding and electrics (e.g. automatic braking, etc.). It is expensive to fit these, and refurbs become even more untenable should you need to replace e bearings and/or lost/damaged parts. Try finding spares of any description for most Robinson, White, Wilson or Sagar kit (all heavyweight manufacturers in their day and often on a par with Wadkin) and then look at the cost of maybe having a bespoke casting made up and machined and you'll understand what I am talking about. In view of this many dealers have taken to filling co trainers with old non-compliant kit and shipping it to places which are a lot less picky about safety. This is before we consider the extra cost of running old, electrically inefficient motors and what it means to production and cashflow to have a critical piece of kit go down for weeks while you source parts (if you can get them)

Even a small shop could gain a level of economy of scale that way if they did longer runs of items and started to specialize for instance with components or something like kitchen cabinet doors. I've not ever seen classical machines with programmable controls before. I've seen them on panel saws but they were made like that from new

To do volume kitchen doors and repetition work you need to reduce the labour content and using classic machines often won't allow you to do this. If you go down the route if CNC machining centres for doors you also end up having to invest in kit like a vacuum press, simply because outsourcing vinyl wrapping is too risky and spraying is not only a major fire risk, but is also labour intensive,time consuming and requires a fairly high level of skill. Some modern manufacturers of classic machines such as SCM, Martin, Panhans, etc have introduced machines such as CNC spindle moulders, normally with long arbors to carry stacked tooling, but they are pretty expensive bits of kit. Same goes for CNC 4-siders such as the modern Weinigs

You don't have to go CNC to survive, but if you want to go into volume I feel you don't have much choice, if only because it reduces dependence on finding experienced and capable staff