what constitutes a new circuit?

[JohnW2]

Interesting if you say you can use an installation certificate even when the work does not involve new circuits?

I'm saying nothing about certificates - the discussion is about 'notifiability'. As I've just written, BS7671 allows (but does not compel) you to use a MWC (rather than an EIC) if you so wish for work which does not involve any 'new circuits'.

In which case how do you define a new circuit assuming a fully populated CU?

If the CU is fully populated, all you can do is extend the existing circuits, unless you install an additional (or larger) CU, or some equivalent like a switch fuse - in which latter case it's pretty obvious one is talking about 'new circuits', isn't it?

In the past before Part P I would often use the ways available but if short of room then share ways.

I'm not sure I fully understand, but if you 'share ways', I would call that 'extending an existing circuit'.

I just think Part P is unworkable without definitions.

Strictly speaking, that's true - but I think there is usually a common sense meaning of 'new circuit'.

It's not only an issue in relation to England. Is it your belief that, in Wales, adding a new socket to an existing ring or radial sockets circuits by spurring/branching from the CU is notifiable?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It is an interesting question.
From statements made it would seem Part P and IET definitions differ with this

Part P says nothing about what is or is not a new circuit.

This is what Part P says:

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I would personally call that extending an existing circuit

That is ridiculous.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

IMO, a case for allowing common sense to prevail!

There is zero common sense in saying that a new final circuit from a CU in the garage is not a new circuit because the CU has a protective device upstream.

Were that to be so, then all someone would have to do would be to have a switchfuse installed between their meter and their CU and nothing from the CU would be a circuit.

Ridiculous.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have I thought made it clear BS 7671 and Part P use a different definition with BS 7671 using a FCU in the main means you have formed a new circuit.

And I have, I thought, made it clear that this is Part P:



I guess I'll just have to keep on telling you until you get it.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I just think Part P is unworkable without definitions.

What part of the requirement, or scope, stated here:



do you think needs defining in order to make it workable?

 

[JohnW2]

IMO, a case for allowing common sense to prevail!

There is zero common sense in saying that a new final circuit from a CU in the garage is not a new circuit because the CU has a protective device upstream. ... Were that to be so, then all someone would have to do would be to have a switchfuse installed between their meter and their CU and nothing from the CU would be a circuit. .... Ridiculous.

Yes, that would be ridiculous, but because of the the complete failure to apply the common sense to which I referred.

Is it really your view that every FCU creates a 'new circuit ... or that having a CU in the garage feeding sockets creates a 'new circuit', whereas direct connection of the feed to sockets in the garage does not (assuming feed from house was from an 'existing circuit')?

I think we all have a pretty good idea of what, in common sense terms, constitutes 'a new circuit' - and, in the absence of any definitions in the Building Regs (or BS7671), I reckon that's what we have to work with.

KInd Regards, John

 

[securespark]

Transferring the circuits from one board to another?

That's what we do all the time with a board change.

Have to do an EIC then.

 

[ericmark]

Circuit. An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s).

OK over current device is a RCD, MCB, or fuse. Be it over current line to earth or line to neutral it's still over current.

So all after the DNO fuse is a circuit.

So all the MCB's on one side are one circuit and all the MCB on the other side are a second circuit.

So all after each MCB is a circuit.

So all after each fuse in a FCU is a circuit.

To me when it's called a ring final that word final means it's not part of the distribution network but is a supply to point of use. I can see how since a FCU is just a fixed plug that it should maybe be treated just like a plug and since we don't need to notify before plugging in then you don't need to notify for a FCU.

However when the garden and kitchen was a special location it was made very clear if the items are fixed even if plugged in then they needed notifying so it's not having a fuse in a plug making a new circuit but the fact that it's fixed which matters.

So either a FCU forms a new circuit and needs notifying or if it's considered as a branch of an existing circuit then also the consumer unit is a branch of an existing circuit.

In Wales the Part P document says what we can do without notifying. If it's not on the list then it needs notifying. However the English document is the reverse this document list what you have to notify and anything not on the list is not required.

The consumer unit is easy, so is the bathroom, but until some one defines new circuit that bit is simply unworkable. BS7671 defines a circuit but not a new circuit. It is a typical political document looks good but says nothing.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes, that would be ridiculous, but because of the the complete failure to apply the common sense to which I referred.

Failure by whom?

Is it really your view that every FCU creates a 'new circuit

That is what BS 7671 says (on p25 of mine).

How would you reword it so that it did not make electrical equipment on the load side of an FCU which had been installed in order to provide overcurrent protection to the electrical equipment a circuit?

or that having a CU in the garage feeding sockets creates a 'new circuit',

That is what BS 7671 says (on p25 of mine).

whereas direct connection of the feed to sockets in the garage does not (assuming feed from house was from an 'existing circuit')?

That is what BS 7671 says (on p25 of mine).

I think we all have a pretty good idea of what, in common sense terms, constitutes 'a new circuit' - and, in the absence of any definitions in the Building Regs (or BS7671), I reckon that's what we have to work with.

BS 7671 is not lacking a definition.

You just don't like it.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The consumer unit is easy, so is the bathroom, but until some one defines new circuit that bit is simply unworkable. BS7671 defines a circuit but not a new circuit.

But BS 7671 does define a circuit.

So if you assemble electrical equipment in a way which creates a circuit, as defined, and that circuit did not exist beforehand then you have got a new circuit.

 

[JohnW2]

Circuit. An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s). .... OK over current device is a RCD, MCB, or fuse. Be it over current line to earth or line to neutral it's still over current. ... So all after the DNO fuse is a circuit. ... So all the MCB's on one side are one circuit and all the MCB on the other side are a second circuit. ... So all after each MCB is a circuit. ... So all after each fuse in a FCU is a circuit.

Exactly - which is why I keep saying that the only seemingly sensible and workable approach is to apply common sense.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Common sense about what and to what?

 

[JohnW2]

Is it really your view that every FCU creates a 'new circuit

That is what BS 7671 says (on p25 of mine).

or that having a CU in the garage feeding sockets creates a 'new circuit',

That is what BS 7671 says (on p25 of mine).

whereas direct connection of the feed to sockets in the garage does not (assuming feed from house was from an 'existing circuit')?

That is what BS 7671 says (on p25 of mine). ... BS 7671 is not lacking a definition.

No - but, as I implied, it is (as illustrated by above quotes) lacking a definition which corresponds with common sense if one tries to apply it to the Building Regs (which have no definition). As I wrote (of the definition of 'circuit' in BS7671):

... Of course, it doesn't really matter much in terms of the regs themselves (it's really just a semantic issue), so they probably didn't think too deeply about the wording - it's only because of its relevance to 'notifiability' (in England) that it has become an issue.

I still think that, for the purpose of the Building Regs, the only sensible course is to apply common sense, rather than to debate the wording of the BS7671 definition.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Common sense about what and to what?

You know full well what I mean. If, the next time you connect something to an existing circuit via an FCU you believe that you have to notify it, please feel free so to do.

Kind Regards, John