What Consumer unit should I get

[Murdochcat]

Hmmm...

New consumer unit fitted in a small industrial unit after EICR, all AFDD. They have arc welder, MIG welder and TIG welder... guess which of those three trips the AFDD?

no need for afdds in that situation . Poor design imho

 

[JohnW2]

no need for afdds in that situation . Poor design imho

I don't disagree with that.

As a matter of interest, in what situations (if any!) do you think there really is a 'need' for AFDDs (and why)?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Murdochcat]

I don't disagree with that.

As a matter of interest, in what situations (if any!) do you think there really is a 'need' for AFDDs (and why)?

Kind Regards, John

I would say there is absolutely no need for AFDDs but BS 7671 amd 2 suggests otherwise.
and as I don’t work in the suggested applications it’s not my issue

JPEL/64 have a lot to answer for

 

[JohnW2]

I would say there is absolutely no need for AFDDs but BS 7671 amd 2 suggests otherwise.

We think exactly the same, then! My view of SPDs is essentially the same - is yours?

JPEL/64 have a lot to answer for

I personally am definitely inclined to agree that they do. As I said above, I am yet to be convinced that anyone would benefit from SPDs (or AFDDs)) other than those who manufacture and sell the devices.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Murdochcat]

We think exactly the same, then! My view of SPDs is essentially the same - is yours?

I personally am definitely inclined to agree that they do. As I said above, I am yet to be convinced that anyone would benefit from SPDs (or AFDDs)) other than those who manufacture and sell the devices.

re SPD’s I’m slowly coming round to them. it Seems the public at large are having to be protected against the inability of the national grid to deliver a reliable electrical supply. I’ve seem examples locally of people losing electronic kit for no apparent reason

the ONLY benefactors of AFDDs are the manufacturers , the regs book publishers, the training centres and the manufacturers.

at the end of the day the regs need to make changes to the regs to justify all the updates …. And as JPEL/64 are influenced by manufacturers we just get shafted

 

[JohnW2]

re SPD’s I’m slowly coming round to them. it Seems the public at large are having to be protected against the inability of the national grid to deliver a reliable electrical supply. I’ve seem examples locally of people losing electronic kit for no apparent reason

As I wrote, I am as yet far from convinced. A major problem is that electronic things do fail and, when they do, it's next-to-impossible to attribute that failure to something which an SPD might possibly have prevented. The perceived/alleged benefits of SPDs would therefore seem to be essentially theoretical, rather than based on any actual empirical data (I certainly have failed to find any!).

I can speak only of my personal experience, and experiences of those around me. Personally, I am notorious for trying to keep using things (including electronic things) for many years (sometimes decades) beyond what could reasonably be described as their 'life expectancy', and usually succeed in doing that. Over the decades, other than for a few 'very early' failures, there have been remarkably few instances of electronic thing failure until well beyond the time when they could reasonably be expected to need replacing. Hence, as I said, if I had had SPDs for the past few decades, the only significant difference in my finances would be what I had spent on SPDs! Of corse, "mileage may vary" for other people!

I would also been inclined to suggest that if the 'quality' of the electricity supply is such as to put electronic items 'at risk', then a major part of the cause could be related to what people connect to the National Grid, rather than a problem with the grid itself.

the ONLY benefactors of AFDDs are the manufacturers , the regs book publishers, the training centres and the manufacturers.

I don't disagree with that.

at the end of the day the regs need to make changes to the regs to justify all the updates …. And as JPEL/64 are influenced by manufacturers we just get shafted

Is it not perhaps a bit worse than just "influenced"? Is it not the case that a substantial proportion of members of JPEL/64 are (employees of, or consultants to) "the manufacturers"?

Having said all that, should SPDs even be within the scope of BS7671 (hence JPEL/64)? Essentially everything else about BS7671 seems to be related to 'safety', in the sense of reduction/minimisation of risks of physical harm to human beings (sometimes other animal species) and I can't think of any other BS7671 regulations which exist only to 'protect' equipment, rather than people/animals.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Murdochcat]

As I wrote, I am as yet far from convinced. A major problem is that electronic things do fail and, when they do, it's next-to-impossible to attribute that failure to something which an SPD might possibly have prevented. The perceived/alleged benefits of SPDs would therefore seem to be essentially theoretical, rather than based on any actual empirical data (I certainly have failed to find any!).

I can speak only of my personal experience, and experiences of those around me. Personally, I am notorious for trying to keep using things (including electronic things) for many years (sometimes decades) beyond what could reasonably be described as their 'life expectancy', and usually succeed in doing that. Over the decades, other than for a few 'very early' failures, there have been remarkably few instances of electronic thing failure until well beyond the time when they could reasonably be expected to need replacing. Hence, as I said, if I had had SPDs for the past few decades, the only significant difference in my finances would be what I had spent on SPDs! Of corse, "mileage may vary" for other people!

I would also been inclined to suggest that if the 'quality' of the electricity supply is such as to put electronic items 'at risk', then a major part of the cause could be related to what people connect to the National Grid, rather than a problem with the grid itself.

I don't disagree with that.

Is it not perhaps a bit worse than just "influenced"? Is it not the case that a substantial proportion of members of JPEL/64 are (emp

Having said all that, should SPDs even be within the scope of BS7671 (hence JPEL/64)? Essentially everything else about BS7671 seems to be related to 'safety', in the sense of reduction/minimisation of risks of physical harm to human beings (sometimes other animal species) and I can't think of any other BS7671 regulations which exist only to 'protect' equipment, rather than people/animals.

Kind Regards, John

I’m likely to retire next year so may channel some of my energy, a lot of common sense and all my electrical knowledge to maintain an anti change against the faceless and mainly nameless individuals who are costing the hard pressed sparks of the uk a huge amount of money AND the helpless homeowners who have to just suck all this carp up

The CPS’s do absolutely nothing to help the members who pay their wages ….

 

[JohnW2]

I’m likely to retire next year so may channel some of my energy, a lot of common sense and all my electrical knowledge to maintain an anti change against the faceless and mainly nameless individuals who are costing the hard pressed sparks of the uk a huge amount of money AND the helpless homeowners who have to just suck all this carp up

I would certainly wish you well with such a venture. However, without implying any disrespect for your knowledge and common sense, I don't think I would put very much (if any!) money of your chances of achieving anything much

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I am sure if you hunt one can find where an AFDD would have stopped a fire, and where a SPD will have saved equipment, but we normally assess risks, and decide if worth taking the risk, we don't try to live in a risk free environment.

The AFDD, and RCD can result in loss of supply, and we are instructed to split the supply into circuits to reduce the risk of loosing it, and although expensive freezers may display the highest temperature they have reached after a power cut, in assessing the risk one must also include risks due to loss of supply, in domestic I have had three shocks from mains, and now 72, those three, one as a lad I stuck my finger up a lamp holder with a missing lamp to feel what was there, so that one miss adventure, the second was from a tape recorder (spool to spool) due to faulty on/off switch, I should have used test equipment to prove dead, or have at least unplugged, so again my fault, and third one some one had installed a cable outside to the permitted zones. The last one house was RCD protected but it still knocked me out. Non of the shocks would have been stopped by a RCD, as said last was RCD protected.

So really the RCD protects against faults due to water ingress, be it a leaking roof, a thermostat failure and tun dish not glued (Emma Shaw's death) or being in some other damp environment like outside. We read about deaths, they make head line news, but news is distorted, 350 people can die and it has one line in the news, 4 or 5 die due to miss adventure in a submarine and there is loads said about it, and we really don't see many reports of death due to electrical installations or equipment.

Would I fit RCD's yes I have all RCBO's, would I change the type AC for type A, no, I think with water ingress the type AC will still disconnect the supply in time.

Would I fit SPD yes I have, not sure if really required, but fact is I have lost a lot less LED bulbs to my son, but as to if due to SPD is anyone's guess.

Would I fit AFDD no, too expensive to fit on the slim off chance they could safe any losses.

There is a different concept as to protecting others than protecting ones self, I fitted RCD's to protect my son who was becoming a radio ham. One tends to do things with some aspect of danger for ones love ones, I will take the risk, but don't want children to take the risk.

Also when you think one is protected one tends to behave different, pre RCD protection when my roof leaked first thing would be to turn off power, but with RCBO's I waited until it tripped.

 

[JohnW2]

I am sure if you hunt one can find where an AFDD would have stopped a fire, and where a SPD will have saved equipment, ...

As I said, whilst I am still very far from convinced about the usefulness,let alone 'need' for either, it can at least be argued that AFDDsmight conceivably have a theoretical 'safety' role (reducing risk of harm to humans or other animals).

As I've also, I'm surprised that BS7671 has taken any interest in SPDs, let alone moving towards 'requiring them', since the must be the first, or one of the first, instances in which BS7671 has concerned itself about risks to equipment, rather than to humans/animasl.

but we normally assess risks, and decide if worth taking the risk, we don't try to live in a risk free environment.

Who is this 'we'? Personally, I would definitely agree that we should do those things, and that we should not try to live in a 'risk-free' environment. However, the 'we' which is society, increasingly under the control of Ms Nanny seems to be trying to move us closer to that 'risk-free environment'.

... We read about deaths, they make head line news, but news is distorted, 350 people can die and it has one line in the news, 4 or 5 die due to miss adventure in a submarine and there is loads said about it ....

Ironically, it is those deaths which are due to incredibly rare or unusual causes that are regarded as 'news'. That might satisfy people's curiosity, but it does not provide much of a useful 'public service'. On the other hand, if each and every death attributable to smoking, or even on the roads, was covered in detail in the 6 o'clock news every day, we might see some changes in behaviour in the population!

, and we really don't see many reports of death due to electrical installations or equipment.

A little contrary to what I've just written, that is presumably at least partially because there are so few - when I last saw figures, there were (perhaps surprisingly) only about a couple of dozen deaths due to domestic electrocution per year in the UK - a lot less than the number of road deaths per week. In context, I would also remind that that at least same (maybe even 'a good few') of that 'couple of dozen domestic electrocutions per year' are very probably ones that no 'device' could have prevented.

Also when you think one is protected one tends to behave different, pre RCD protection when my roof leaked first thing would be to turn off power, but with RCBO's I waited until it tripped.

Indeed, but worse than that, if people are (to some extent) 'protected', they can become complacent and feel that they don't need to take any care themselves, even though no device gives '100% protection' - that's true of electrical installations with RCDs, cars with ABS and other new-fangled technology, machines with guards, and even people who have received vaccines etc., etc. etc.

Kind Regards, John