What is electrical equipment and what is an electrical installation?

[mikehammer69]

Without going back because it will probably confuse me

Fixed wiring

Fixed appliances

Portable appliances

I’ve never had any confusion

 

[JohnW2]

Fixed wiring
Fixed appliances
Portable appliances
I’ve never had any confusion

As I keep trying to explain, it's nothing to do with whether you (or any of us) have any personal confusion about such things - it's is about what regulations do and do not consider to be part of an 'electrical installation'

 

[SUNRAY]

Without going back because it will probably confuse me

Fixed wiring

Fixed appliances

Portable appliances

I’ve never had any confusion

On that basis perhaps you could expand your list with concise demarcation descriptions please.

 

[mikehammer69]

On that basis perhaps you could expand your list with concise demarcation descriptions please.

I consider an electrical installation to be the fixed wiring + fixed appliances (wired in appliances )

My definition of portable appliances is any appliance that is plugged in . I don’t consider these part of the installation

An appliance is a piece of current using equipment not a mobile home or a outbuilding that happens to be connected via plug

 

[JohnW2]

I consider an electrical installation to be the fixed wiring + fixed appliances (wired in appliances )
My definition of portable appliances is any appliance that is plugged in . I don’t consider these part of the installation

Fair enough - I imagine that many/most people (including myself) would feel that was fairly close to 'common sense' - although I do have to wonder whether it really is totally sensible that, say, an oven, heater, saw table etc. changes from 'portable appliance' to 'part of the electrical installation' if they are connected via an FCU rather than a plug/socket. In terms of everyday language, I suspect that many (most?) people would say that none of those bits of equipment were really 'portable' on the basis of their size/weight, regardless of how they were supplied with electricity?

Do you really believe that things like ovens and table saws (and, indeed, things like CH pumps, motorise valves and fans) have to be inspected and tested as part of an EICR if they are supplied via FCUs?

An appliance is a piece of current using equipment not a mobile home or a outbuilding that happens to be connected via plug

This is where I think the problem arises. You have no 'confusion' about these issues because you are attempting to apply common sense, but the regs are not necessarily as sensible as you. A mobile home or an outbuilding are (collections of) 'current using equipment' - and a mobile home is, at least in some senses, 'portable' (in that it can be 'moved') - and we don't know 'how sensible' the regs are trying to be because they do not explicitly address these questions.

 

[SUNRAY]

deleted

 

[mikehammer69]

..

 

[JohnW2]

deleted

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A lot of deleting ('second thoughts'??) going on around here

 

[ebee]

Hmm, lets try something simpler, lets solve the

Skasis Paradigm ​

 

[JohnW2]

Hmm, lets try something simpler, lets solve the

Skasis Paradigm ​

I'd have to look that one up, but I think it's got something to do with "Dr Who", hasn't it?

 

[SUNRAY]

deleted

A lot of deleting ('second thoughts'??) going on around here

I responded to #34 then re-read it, decided my disagreement with it wasn't worth the plethora of cr4p it was going to generate.

 

[ericmark]

To my mind:-
Anything which needs a tool or key to move it is fixed.
Unless it has wheels, over 18 kg is fixed.
As to installation and equipment, I would add the words current-using, so the installation old supplies current to current-using equipment.

In the main, the installation does not need any special skills or permissions to work on it. At least for the testing and inspecting, so anyone who has passed his C&G 2391 should be able to say if safe or potentially dangerous.

But with equipment, we have items even in the home, which needs specialist skills, be it the central heating, a microwave, or a smoke alarm.

So with the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment, we have two exams, one for the administration, and one for the actual testing and inspecting, and it is down to the administrator to engage people to inspect and test, so a refrigerator may be on a maintenance contract, and the vending machine for clear reasons, not every electrician has the key. Remember same rules apply if domestic or industrial, and to remove an item from service means it no longer needs testing, but we do need some method to quarantine equipment not in use.

This is why our electrical compound had to be locked, so no unauthorized person could remove it. Clearly cutting off the plug stops it being used, but when the law requires a moulded plug to be fitted by the manufacturer this process must be stopped.

I do not, any longer, use installed radio equipment, however when I did, the room it was kept in had to be locked, to comply with licence conditions.

The same may apply with guns, so we can't take it as read, that an inspector can go where he likes, so there needs to be again a method to combine documents, so all is inspected and tested, and recorded, even if not all done by the same person.

So we have the equipment register, have you ever tried to keep one up to date, I have, near impossible, and there is always something which drops through the cracks, extension leads would normally be grouped in with equipment, but not current using, but also not installed.

Is a whole caravan a bit of equipment, so should it be PAT tested? The batching plant I worked on was portable equipment, it was on wheels, and could be moved place to place, OK needed 22 tractor units to move it, but it was portable, so in the home, the washing machine is portable i.e. on wheels, but the drier is not!

If not looking at the law, it does not matter, all electrical stuff needs inspecting and testing, does not matter if the installation or current using equipment, and in industry the electrical department will decide who does what. And if it is easier to test the hand drier in the loo when doing the EICR then that's how it will be done, even if the records kept with the equipment register.

But domestic not so easy, and also what is done with a service contract? So my freezer with a service contract, is only likely looked at when it breaks down, but the boiler, likely there is a visit every year.

Also, what is tested, the safety officer may test smoke alarms with a smoke generator, but he likely does not test the supply.

 

[JohnW2]

To my mind:- Anything which needs a tool or key to move it is fixed. ... Unless it has wheels, over 18 kg is fixed.

We will all have personal thoughts/views about it, but those personal views do no affect anything

As to installation and equipment, I would add the words current-using, so the installation old supplies current to current-using equipment.

Are you suggesting that anything 'current using' in NOT part of the installatio, even if (by your personal definition) it is 'fixed'?

 

[SUNRAY]

We will all have personal thoughts/views about it, but those personal views do no affect anything

Are you suggesting that anything 'current using' in NOT part of the installatio, even if (by your personal definition) it is 'fixed'?

Do we really ned to reopen these highly disputed opinions yet again?

 

[JohnW2]

Do we really ned to reopen these highly disputed opinions yet again?

I can't speak for 'we', but I personally certainly don't want or need to. It seems to be primarily eric who keeps bringing it up.

Having said that, there is one sense in which it's 'important' (to some), since the 'landlord legislation' gave teeth to EICRs. One would like to think that landlords are not going to find themselves having to pay for (quite possibly 'unnecessary) 'remedial work' because of C2s relating to things that many people might not believe are (or should be) within the scope of an EICR.