What is electrical equipment and what is an electrical installation?

[ericmark]

Are you suggesting that anything 'current using' is NOT part of the installation, even if (by your personal definition) it is 'fixed'?

Basic answer is yes. All needs testing and inspecting, but we have special rules for in-service electrical equipment, so if it comes under the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment then it does not also come under electrical installation condition report even if installed.

We clearly use some common sense, and pendents are included with the EICR rather PAT testing, even when the bulb uses energy. But we don't want to be testing the same gear twice.

 

[JohnW2]

Basic answer is yes. All needs testing and inspecting, but we have special rules for in-service electrical equipment ...

Who is this 'we'? Does it include landlords?

... so if it comes under the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment then it does not also come under electrical installation condition report even if installed.

Don't forget that the 'landlord legislation' doesn't actually mention EICRs (which are mentioned only in the associated guidance document)- it talks only of "inspection and testing" - so it could be said that it catches the landlords 'both ways'.

We clearly use some common sense, and pendents are included with the EICR rather PAT testing, even when the bulb uses energy.

One has to be careful here, since one cannot (lawfully) over-ride what legislation actually says by application of 'common sense', even if the legislation doesn't make sense! Even a court can't do that - they can clarify/interpret what the legislation says, but, if the legislation is clear, they can't change it (even if it's daft!).

However, I agree that this is very much a grey area. For a start, is a pendant light really materially different from many other 'hard-wired' light fittings? Secondly, what is on the end of the cable of a ('hard-wired') pendant is a 'socket' into which one plugs (or screws, or twists) an item of current-using equipment (lamp/bulb) - and I would think that most people would probably say that a 'hard-wired socket" IS 'part of the instillation', wouldn't they?

 

[ericmark]

Don't forget that the 'landlord legislation' doesn't actually mention EICRs (which are mentioned only in the associated guidance document)- it talks only of "inspection and testing" - so it could be said that it catches the landlords 'both ways'.

Yes, agreed, so if an electrician is asked to do an EICR, and it does not cover what the law requires, what then? Electrician has done his job.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, agreed, so if an electrician is asked to do an EICR, and it does not cover what the law requires, what then? Electrician has done his job.

Well, the electrician will have done what he was asked to do, but that's not necessarily everything that the law requires.

However, at least in my part of the world what a lot of what the electricians seem to be offering in their adverts is "landlord inspections" or"rented property inspections" (or some similar term) - so, if they are asked to do 'one of those', one would hope that they do everything that the law does require!

 

[SUNRAY]

The electrician I use for my properties is one of the companies I subbed to and he used to /?still does sit on niceic committees, he is the only electrician out of the dozens I've encountered/worked with/for I'd trust implicitly. He won't B.S. me, if it's good he'll tell me it's good, if it's wrong he'll tell me it's wrong and how bad. if he has concerns he'll advise me in detail. I don't want anything wrong in my rental properties and he won't let me. And that's how I like it.

 

[ebee]

To my mind:-
Anything which needs a tool or key to move it is fixed.
Unless it has wheels, over 18 kg is fixed.
As to installation and equipment, I would add the words current-using, so the installation old supplies current to current-using equipment.

In the main, the installation does not need any special skills or permissions to work on it. At least for the testing and inspecting, so anyone who has passed his C&G 2391 should be able to say if safe or potentially dangerous.

But with equipment, we have items even in the home, which needs specialist skills, be it the central heating, a microwave, or a smoke alarm.

So with the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment, we have two exams, one for the administration, and one for the actual testing and inspecting, and it is down to the administrator to engage people to inspect and test, so a refrigerator may be on a maintenance contract, and the vending machine for clear reasons, not every electrician has the key. Remember same rules apply if domestic or industrial, and to remove an item from service means it no longer needs testing, but we do need some method to quarantine equipment not in use.

This is why our electrical compound had to be locked, so no unauthorized person could remove it. Clearly cutting off the plug stops it being used, but when the law requires a moulded plug to be fitted by the manufacturer this process must be stopped.

I do not, any longer, use installed radio equipment, however when I did, the room it was kept in had to be locked, to comply with licence conditions.

The same may apply with guns, so we can't take it as read, that an inspector can go where he likes, so there needs to be again a method to combine documents, so all is inspected and tested, and recorded, even if not all done by the same person.

So we have the equipment register, have you ever tried to keep one up to date, I have, near impossible, and there is always something which drops through the cracks, extension leads would normally be grouped in with equipment, but not current using, but also not installed.

Is a whole caravan a bit of equipment, so should it be PAT tested? The batching plant I worked on was portable equipment, it was on wheels, and could be moved place to place, OK needed 22 tractor units to move it, but it was portable, so in the home, the washing machine is portable i.e. on wheels, but the drier is not!

If not looking at the law, it does not matter, all electrical stuff needs inspecting and testing, does not matter if the installation or current using equipment, and in industry the electrical department will decide who does what. And if it is easier to test the hand drier in the loo when doing the EICR then that's how it will be done, even if the records kept with the equipment register.

But domestic not so easy, and also what is done with a service contract? So my freezer with a service contract, is only likely looked at when it breaks down, but the boiler, likely there is a visit every year.

Also, what is tested, the safety officer may test smoke alarms with a smoke generator, but he likely does not test the supply.

Current using equipment such as an electric shower for example - would the shower unit heater itself need testing or inspecting or merely the wiring connecting it to the mains supply?

Personally I would include all the wiring from the cut-out to the shower terminals and test those terminals for soundness and visual checks for overheating and damage to both the internals and externals of that shower heater. If it’s intended to be permanently connected to the mains it must be safe with regards to persons, livestock and property irrespective of whether or not it actually works correctly.

 

[JohnW2]

Current using equipment such as an electric shower for example - would the shower unit heater itself need testing or inspecting or merely the wiring connecting it to the mains supply?

Quite so. Bureaucracy/rules/laws apart, the answer obviously depends in large part in the 'reason' the I&T are being undertaken (and 'for whom').

Personally I would include all the wiring from the cut-out to the shower terminals and test those terminals for soundness and visual checks for overheating and damage to both the internals and externals of that shower heater. If it’s intended to be permanently connected to the mains it must be safe with regards to persons, livestock and property irrespective of whether or not it actually works correctly.

That sounds sensible enough. However, that "visual checks for overheating and damage to both the internals and externals", that's all very well for a shower,since removing the case is usually easy/trivial, but it would become much more of a task, maybe even considered 'impractical' with some either (particularly if large/heavy) and/or hard-wired loads - e.g. a cooker (and that's without even thinking about a heat pump or PV installation )

 

[ebee]

I was merely pointing out that any reasonable pro would include a quick look see whilst checking the terminals on say a shower unit, with such as an oven this probably could not be easily done as you’d only see the terminals and screw bits very near to them so you would not be expected to start more dismantling than required.

I always think on the way to XYZ in XYZ room it is reasonable to notice other things in other rooms hallways in passing and we might see something we could advise on if we have seen it . In fact I have known folk to say “Oh an Electrician saw that but never said anything about it so I thought it must be okay!” .

Whilst I might not go out of my way unless it’s part of the job I would certainly mention any cause for concern that I might have noticed on passing by.

 

[SUNRAY]

Quite so. Bureaucracy/rules/laws apart, the answer obviously depends in large part in the 'reason' the I&T are being undertaken (and 'for whom').

That sounds sensible enough. However, that "visual checks for overheating and damage to both the internals and externals", that's all very well for a shower,since removing the case is usually easy/trivial, but it would become much more of a task, maybe even considered 'impractical' with some either (particularly if large/heavy) and/or hard-wired loads - e.g. a cooker (and that's without even thinking about a heat pump or PV installation )

Surely the product is irrelevant, they should all be handled in a similar manner.

 

[mikehammer69]

Im from outside Uk but surely any inspection will be limited to what’s practicable

That would be the expected wording

 

[JohnW2]

I was merely pointing out that any reasonable pro would include a quick look see whilst checking the terminals on say a shower unit, with such as an oven this probably could not be easily done as you’d only see the terminals and screw bits very near to them so you would not be expected to start more dismantling than required.

Sure, but, in turn, I was merely pointing out (as also has Sunray) that you are being (probably sensibly) 'selective' on the basis of practicalities and 'common sense', whereas, in electrical terms, there is no reason why visible evidence of, say, "internal overheating or damage" should be any less common in 'difficult to inspect' products than 'easy-to-inspect' ones.

As I'm about to write to mikehammer, that's fine if it is an 'ordinary' EICR or other inspection, since there can be negotiation s to the cope of the I&T, but when we're talking about an inspection 'required by legislation', then that legislation really ought to make it explicitly clear as to exactly what had to be subjected to the I&T.

Whilst I might not go out of my way unless it’s part of the job I would certainly mention any cause for concern that I might have noticed on passing by.

One would hope that most people would do that - even for issues nothing to do with 'electrics'!

 

[JohnW2]

Im from outside Uk but surely any inspection will be limited to what’s practicable .... That would be the expected wording

As I've just written to ebee, that's fine, and sensible, if it is an 'ordinary' EICR or other inspection, since there can be negotiationa s to the cope of the I&T - which can take 'practicability' intoaccount.

However, as I also wrote, when we're talking about an inspection 'required by legislation', then that legislation really ought to make it explicitly clear as to exactly what had to be subjected to the I&T - and that is not really the case with the legislation we're talking about. Indeed, as often said, the legislation itself does not even anywhere mention "EICR".

 

[mikehammer69]

I don't really keep track of the threads as they're usually quite long winded and hard to follow

being outside UK I lack specific knowledge

I usually just reply to posts as I see them