What might this (ancient) cable be?

[JohnW2]

Hi folks, I'm currently trying to get to grips with a house which was built in 1887. Beneath the floorboards are (amongst other things!!) generations of old out-of-service cables,including a lot of VIR and lead-sheathed 'mains' cables.

However, there is also a fair bit of cable as per (not very good) photo below. It is lead-sheathed, with an outside diameter of about 12-13mm and contains about 20 solid cores, each with (mainly blue/orange/black) insulation and each wrapped (outside the insulation) with some sort of cotton or suchlike). So far, every bit I've found has got cut ends, with no indication of what it was once connected to.

I can't think of any use of such a cable (in the 'lead-sheathed' era) other than for telephones or suchlike. ,but no domestic dwelling would ever have needed anything like that many cores (if any!). One possibility relates to the fact that during WWII, the (fairly large, 3-storey) house was taken over by the Ministry of Food as a 'Food Office', and I therefore suppose it's possible that they had an extensive installation of phones and/or 'intercoms'.

Any thoughts? There's a good few quid's worth of lead there if/when I can get it all out (easier said than done - it's very 'stiff'!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[jurassic sparkk]

Looks like waxed paper enameled solid copper cloth wire. Was mostly used for audio as I am aware. Very old though. Multiple cores showing that it was used for loudspeakers etc.

 

[pete01]

WE #22ga Waxed Paper Cover Enameled Solid Copper Cloth wire 233.6M(A234) | eBay

WE #22ga Waxed Paper Cover Enameled Solid Copper Cloth wire 233.6M(A234) | Consumer Electronics, Vintage Electronics, Vintage Audio & Video | eBay!

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[JohnW2]

Looks like waxed paper enameled solid copper cloth wire. Was mostly used for audio as I am aware. Very old though. Multiple cores showing that it was used for loudspeakers etc.

Thanks. I have to say that, at first sight, the coloured 'insulation' looked and felt very much like PVC or similar, although it obviously couldn't be.

However, on closer inspection, the conductors appear to be solid copper (about 0.75mm OD, hence about 0.44 mm²), either bare or ensmelled (hard to tell whether the outer 'layer' is tarnishing or enamel) and that the coloured lyer over it (beneath the white 'cotton' layer)is 'braided', hence I suppose some sort of 'cloth' (see pic below).

Until the late 1930's the house was used as a domestic dwelling but, given that it didn't even have a bathroom, I would have thought it unlikely that it would have had extensive audio/speaker wiring. I've explained what happened during the war and ever since the war has been used primarily for 'storage', with just one small office - so, again, audio/speaker wiring would seem unlikley.

Kind Regards, John

 

[jurassic sparkk]

However, on closer inspection, the conductors appear to be solid copper (about 0.75mm OD, hence about 0.045 mm²), either bare or ensmelled (hard to tell whether the outer 'layer' is tarnishing or enamel) and that the coloured lyer over it (beneath the white 'cotton' layer)is 'braided', hence I suppose some sort of 'cloth' (see pic below).

Well, whatever it is it should be thrown in the bin. Anything else is just timewasting and whataboutery. I have found several alien cables under the floorboards; what I do is just throw them in the black bin where it should have belonged there 70 years ago.

 

[JohnW2]

WE #22ga Waxed Paper Cover Enameled Solid Copper Cloth wire 233.6M(A234) | eBay

WE #22ga Waxed Paper Cover Enameled Solid Copper Cloth wire 233.6M(A234) | Consumer Electronics, Vintage Electronics, Vintage Audio & Video | eBay!

www.ebay.com.my

Thanks. Certainly similar in some respects, but mine has no paper layer and has the lead outer sheath. I wonder what the coloured 'insulation'' in that one are made of?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Well, whatever it is it should be thrown in the bin. Anything else is just timewasting and whataboutery. I have found several alien cables under the floorboards; what I do is just throw them in the black bin where it should have belonged there 70 years ago.

It's certainly not going into any bin

A metre of it weighs best part of 1 kg, and there must be many dozens of metres under the floorboards - so far from an insignificant 'weigh-in' value, particularly when added to all the lead-sheathed twin cable and, even more so, a lot of lead pipe (including waste pipe and even some of the soil pipes)!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

Three possibilities

1) bell systems for calling servants if the house is a large one.

2) cables for Rediffusion network radio and TV service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rediffusion

3) telecoms to a wartime use of the house ( such as a listening station )

Other uses are also possible.

 

[JohnW2]

Three possibilities 1) bell systems for calling servants if the house is a large one.

Not impossible. Up until the early 1930s, there was usually one or two servants there. Although 3 storeys, it's not enormous - originally 5-bedrooms (but no bathrooms), now 4, due to subsequent loss of one to create embryonic bathrooms. However, why 20+ cores, and why lead sheathed. There are also a lot of very thin 'singles' lying around under the floors, which I suspect may have been relate too bell systems etc.

2) cables for Rediffusion network radio and TV service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rediffusion

I don't know much about that, but since it must have appeared before the end of WWII, I doubt that it would have been TV. Did the 'network radio' require multi-core cables (maybe for different 'stations'/programmes)?

3) telecoms to a wartime use of the house ( such as a listening station )

As I said, I think that thee Ministry which occupied the property during WWII were probably responsible. However, my understanding (from 'contemporary witnesses, in the past) is that most, if not all, of the building was 'open to ghe public', so I would suspect that it's relatively unlikley that any activities such as you suggest were going on ... but who knows ?!

As an unrelated throwaway comment, to illustrate how much 'inflation' there has been, when 'the Ministry' first started using the house in August 1940, the rent they paid (to my great-grandfather), for this 3-story, 5-bedroomed house, was 17/6 (a.k.a 87.5p) per week

Kind Regards, John

 

[Why Not Indeed]

2) cables for Rediffusion network radio and TV service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rediffusion

I lived in a house with Rediffusion cables clipped to the back wall, it was plastic-coated not lead. I think it was twisted pair as well. I was a keen shortwave listener and it was a useful source of random lengths of copper wire [this was way after Rediffusion was shut down, BTW!].

 

[SUNRAY]

I think you'll find that is twisted pairs and was telephone. As I can see a blue/green it looks to me like 12pr, although it would have been called 24 wire. Potentially there may be a thicker white (Earth) than the rest in which case 25 wire.

 

[JohnW2]

I think you'll find that is twisted pairs and was telephone. As I can see a blue/green it looks to me like 12pr, although it would have been called 24 wire. Potentially there may be a thicker white (Earth) than the rest in which case 25 wire.

Yes, you seem to be essentially right, at least as far as structure is concerned. See piccie - 12 pairs, albeit each pair only 'just about twisted'. One of each pair is white, but no 25th 'thicker white'.

As for the use/purpose, I suppose that 'telephone' is by far the most likely answer, although I still suspect that it may have been essentially an 'internal phone network (during the war)', since the public network was then pretty sparse, probably not justifying multiple incoming 'lines' (the landline numbers of my great-grandfather's two nearby businesses were "10" and "49" in the 1930s )

... but why the thick lead sheath? I thought of 'rodents', but imagine they could nibble through lead without much trouble.

My continuing explorations under floorboards (and within some walls!) may eventually reveal some evidence/clues as to what these cables were originally connected to.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I assume your diagnosis is very close to the truth. The lead sheath was more common than I suspect you realise.

However I might have to complain you have fanned them out in the wrong colour code order. Any telephone engineer will be reeling in agony

 

[JohnW2]

I assume your diagnosis is very close to the truth. The lead sheath was more common than I suspect you realise.

Yes, very probably. Maybe lead was a bit cheaper in those days - as I said, that cable is nearly 1 kg per metre. I wonder how big 'drums' in came in

However I might have to complain you have fanned them out in the wrong colour code order. Any telephone engineer will be reeling in agony

I think you probably have to blame the person or machine who manufactured the cable for that. I made no attempt to 're-arrange' them - but simply 'folded them down in the order that they 'unwound from the cable

Kind Regards, John

 

[blup]

The ostensible war time use may have been a cover for other activities. Is it anywhere near Bletchley park?

Blup