What's involved in upgrading my electrician?

[cjard]

I've an electrician friend who does a lot of work all over the country, for various agencies. His work involves installation and testing, and he tells me he's a JIB card holder (but I'm not sure what grade)

I'm curious to know if I can pay for some training, courses or scheme membership etc for him to upgrade him to a level where he could carry out a couple of domestic installations for me (for a bargain price in recognition of me stumping up to upgrade him) and sign them off

Can anyone advise if this is an option? Would he have the relevant skills?

I appreciate that some of this is probably a "depends - what has he got already?" and if so, what are the questions I should ask him?

Thanks

 

[EFLImpudence]

We are getting some strange questions lately.

Where to start?
anyone competent can do the work you want.

For the few notifiable jobs left in England (more in Wales) a self-certification scheme membership may be useful but not essential as the Local Authority may accept your friend and a fee.

Does he have his own insurance, tools and equipment?

 

[cjard]

Pleased to oblige!

OK, but then I'd say I was competent - I'm a university grade software engineer and member of the IEEE, I can read and I'm good on the tools. The purchase price of BS7671 is not beyond my means and I'm aware I could hire the relevant testing kit and follow its instruction manual..
..but does that make me competent in the sense that my building inspector would accept me signing an EICR? Do I not need to belong to an industry body that regulates its member, like NAPIT, NICEIC etc?

I'm aware that the LA have a scheme whereby they get involved with design/overseeing/testing (or engage a local contractor) and EICR (which is slightly different to the self cert EIR) but..
..my building inspector is an independent approved inspector rather than the council and I'm not sure what he's expecting to see in terms of an EIR/EICR signed by someone who is (a member of a trade body?)

Insurance, I'd say no - he works for other agencies and appears to be something like a temp/what I think of a temp agency as. Tools, yes. Test equipt, probably no or not a full suite (uses agency equipment as required)

Hence my question - assuming my mate is an ECS gold card holding approved electrician, is he allowed to fill out an EIR/EICR? If not, what needs to be done to upgrade him qualifications/insurance-wise so that he can?

Maybe I could have him do the work and call on the council to test it (regardless of the fact that the rest of my build is being inspected by an independent)

 

[EFLImpudence]

OK, but then I'd say I was competent - I'm a university grade software engineer and member of the IEEE, I can read and I'm good on the tools. The purchase price of BS7671 is not beyond my means and I'm aware I could hire the relevant testing kit and follow its instruction manual..

[tentative] Ok [/tentative]

..but does that make me competent in the sense that my building inspector would accept me signing an EICR?

EIC so perhaps not yet.
BI not involved with EICRs.

Do I not need to belong to an industry body that regulates its member, like NAPIT, NICEIC etc?

Only to avoid the BI being involved with the three types of notifiable work in England.
Are you in England? I find it irritating to keep excluding Wales; they wanted devolution.

I'm aware that the LA have a scheme whereby they get involved with design/overseeing/testing (or engage a local contractor)

Their scheme is THE LAW.

and EICR (which is slightly different to the self cert EIR) but.

Your terms are confused.
EIC - Electrical Installation Certificate. (for new work)
EICR - Electrical Installation Condition Report.

..my building inspector is an independent approved inspector rather than the council and I'm not sure what he's expecting to see in terms of an EIR/EICR signed by someone who is (a member of a trade body?)

You will have to ask him. Above comments relate to LA BI.

Insurance, I'd say no - he works for other agencies and appears to be something like a temp/what I think of a temp agency as. Tools, yes. Test equipt, probably no or not a full suite (uses agency equipment as required)

Can't do your work then.

Hence my question - assuming my mate is an ECS gold card holding installation electrician, is he allowed to fill out an EIR/EICR? If not, what needs to be done to upgrade him qualifications/insurance-wise so that he can?

Yes, anyone can do it.

Maybe I could have him do the work and call on the council to test it (regardless of the fact that the rest of my build is being inspected by an independent)

Your private inspector means the LA need not be involved.

 

[cjard]

EIR => EIC, sorry - been a couple of weeks since I looked the terms up and I guess they got confused, rolling round my head along with all the rest of the build

So it seems like, if I were to sign my mate up to NAPIT/NICEIC/ECA/ELECSA, they inspect his work/observe him installing and testing and sign him up.. That means he gains cover under their PI and can sign their flavour of an EIC..

..or in summary, it's not a training or skills issue because he already has those; the thing stopping him self certifying is insurance cover (which he would gain by becoming a member of a recognised body) and test kit (which can be hired)

 

[flameport]

.or in summary, it's not a training or skills issue because he already has those; the thing stopping him self certifying is insurance cover (which he would gain by becoming a member of a recognised body) and test kit (which can be hired)

Joining a scheme means the person or organisation can notify work to building control for a reduced fee. Typically a few pounds each - however there is the £400-£500 annual fee as well. Obviously this only makes sense for those notifying considerable amounts of work all the time.

This is of no value to you, as you already have a building inspector involved.

Joining a scheme does not provide you with insurance - you have to pay for that from an insurance company.
Neither does it include any other required items such as owning the proper test equipment, having a selection of work already completed that can be examined, various documents / books / other and the waste of a day while all of that is checked.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

So it seems like, if I were to sign my mate up to NAPIT/NICEIC/ECA/ELECSA, they inspect his work/observe him installing and testing and sign him up.. That means he gains cover under their PI and can sign their flavour of an EIC..

Does not work like that, he will firstly have to have the required qualification that the scheme provider requires, he will also require, PLI of at least £2 million pound, a library of various BS7671 updated publication, part p doc and the electricity at work regulations memorandum of guidance.
They may request evidence of risk assessments, H&E policy, quotations for works, works contracts, calibrated test equipment. Then a completed job that has documentation and very likely already gone through building control notification procedures.

..or in summary, it's not a training or skills issue because he already has those; the thing stopping him self certifying is insurance cover (which he would gain by becoming a member of a recognised body) and test kit (which can be hired)

No he wouldn't, they do not insure you as part of the membership! That is separately purchased product. they may offer you it in exchange for GBPs!

 

[cjard]

I'll phone a few of the governing bodies and see how many hoops they need their members to jump through

flameport; alas - it appears that my BI isn't interested in the "more work for me" method of certifying electrics by testing/having it tested; he just wants an EIC, signed and in his hand

 

[ericmark]

Point one I live in Wales and point to my involvement with LABC was a good few years ago so possibly now changes.

However to sign off work they seemed to have little idea of what was required. I wanted my son to do job and I would labour for him as he had insurance and he also had C&G2391 which is the exam to show you know how to inspect and test.

Our efforts to convince the inspector my son had both the test equipment and knowledge failed and they were not budging and wanted us to employ a third party inspector.

In desperation my son said what if my dad does testing he has a degree in electrical and electronic engineering (Which in no way qualified me to inspect and test) and the inspector said yes.

As it happens I also have C&G2391 but inspector did not know that.

My point is common sense and nationally recognised qualifications seem to have little or no effect on getting the council to accept a certificate. Also my son found there was a completely different attitude in Cheshire, Liverpool and Flintshire the Liverpool inspector was very helpful the Flintshire one was a real pain.

At the time England and Wales had same rules. So point is it's all down to your inspector and because one county will accept a set of qualifications does not mean another will.

I think my sons comment "Will your inspector be better trained than my dad" was what moved the inspector to accept my signature.

To me it seems completely daft my degree taught me how to calculate heat sink sizes and how to work out how much power will flow down cables with multi power sources and many power using devices. It showed me how to write PLC programs and program a PIC but it did not even touch on the requirements of BS7671 or any of the electrics found in the structure of a house. Write a program to run a washing machine yes but not simple house wiring.

I was an electrician before I took my degree and I have really been surprised at how people seem to think I have a degree so I must be good! I think this is a major problem people including LABC inspectors don't seem to have any idea what the exams show. I hear people say "I have the 17th Edition exam" which means they can read a book.

I do wonder what will happen in England for consumer unit change and some work in a bathroom the electrician needs scheme membership to be able to do work for a reasonable fee. But for rest he does not really need to spend that £500 per year so I can see many just not bothering with scheme membership.

Already here on the borders of Wales we are seeing problems where electricians seem to be unaware we are using a different song sheet and have done work without supplying the compliance certificate. I think the CH post code does not help they seem to think CH means Cheshire but CH7 is Wales.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I'll phone a few of the governing bodies and see how many hoops they need their members to jump through

I have already explained to you what is required. To register on a scheme and proved all that is required for the assessment, assuming the electrician has the correct quals, is very likely to be in the higher hundreds and possible £1000.00 mark. And they do not come out and access you straight away, you maybe waiting two/three month for that.

it appears that my BI isn't interested in the "more work for me" method of certifying electrics by testing/having it tested; he just wants an EIC, signed and in his hand

They rarely are interested and they rarely know much about domestic electrical requirements, all they want is your money and a signed test cert holding someone else responsible for it.

 

[Taylortwocities]

What LABC really really want (and I'll tell you what they really really want)

is a quiet life.

They want a registered electrician to do the work, log the job with his CPS and for them to get the notification delivered to them electronically.

Anything else, for them, is a PITA.

 

[JohnW2]

Joining a scheme means the person or organisation can notify work to building control for a reduced fee. Typically a few pounds each - however there is the £400-£500 annual fee as well. Obviously this only makes sense for those notifying considerable amounts of work all the time.

In my neck of the woods that "considerable amount of work" would, in purely monetary terms, be only just over one 'major' job per year (at £350 per go) - or 2 or 3 'minor' jobs per year (at £180 per go).

Kind Regards, John

 

[cjard]

I have already explained to you what is required. To register on a scheme and proved all that is required for the assessment, assuming the electrician has the correct quals, is very likely to be in the higher hundreds and possible £1000.00 mark. And they do not come out and access you straight away, you maybe waiting two/three month for that.

Well.. a reg fee of a thousand might well be something of a drop in the ocean of building a house from the ground up though?

Suppose I get a spark in who runs a business locally, NIC registered, shiny van etc, and he says "£15 grand to wire these 2 houses up"
Compared to a good mate; I pay to register him so he can go do jobs for other people, I buy a stack of wire and sockets and let him crack on in the evenings and give him some reasonable money for his time. Virtual cert it's less than the other option, even with the registration fee, no?

How much would you charge to wire two 4 bed semis up? 10 rooms, at least 5 sockets in each room, mix of wall and ceiling lighting, and a boatload of power hungry appliances in the utility and kitchen. It's new build and has service voids/pre drilled wire runs through joists etc. Ballpark it, if you will..



I'm probably at the sort of time point where in 2 or 3 months time starting to get the electrics in would be handy so I can cope with a delay like that.. So now I know what's required to upgrade my electrician, I guess I need to find out whether it's worth doing

 

[Taylortwocities]

As part of the approval process from the CPS scheme, the inspector will want to visit and inspect work that the electrician candidate has done.
Does he have such a work history?

 

[cjard]

As part of the approval process from the CPS scheme, the inspector will want to visit and inspect work that the electrician candidate has done.
Does he have such a work history?

Load of jobs all over the place, though I was under the impression that inspections could be done of work in places like my site (i.e. they can inspect work done as part of registering for the scheme), or even his own home..