What's the cheapest way to heat n have hot water?

[DIYedboy]

Nowadays there's loads of options..........combi's, heat stores, etc etc.

So, let's say I have a 3 bed middle of terrace solid wall 1930's house with double glazing and 4" insulation in loft and it has a gas supply. Taking into account the boiler parts n servicing costs too (my old combi needed lots of parts n labour! so it's efficiency was flawed by it's ineffiency!). Then assuming there are two adults n two children in there, what should I install to keep my wallet as fat as possible!

 

[stem]

You are really in the best position to answer the question as a lot will depend on your lifestyle what is your comfortable room temperature etc., Also in your case if your neighbours heat the rooms adjacent to yours

I know someone that has a woodburning stove and access to lots of logs for free and you can't get cheaper than that.

Energy prices fluctuate so the cheapest today may not be tomorrow. If you can afford a heat pump system and your home is suitable, this can be the cheapest to run but expensive to install.

Mains gas still seems to be the cheapest option for most people. If I was you, I'd go with a new "A" efficiency rated gas boiler assuming your existing heating system is fitted with thermostats and is reasonably modern, then using what you have can save installation costs. Then spend on insulation, pipe insulation, top up that roof insulation and if feasible consider insulating your external solid walls. If you do that, then you'll keep on saving money.

You don't mention a cellar, but if you have one try to draftproof as much as possible

 

[JPC]

get a 2nd gas meter

 

[Agile]

Energy prices fluctuate so the cheapest today may not be tomorrow. If you can afford a heat pump system and your home is suitable, this can be the cheapest to run but expensive to install.

Why do you think that a heat pump powered from electricity is cheaper to run than gas?

Please include the figures which you are relying on in your reply.

Tony

 

[DIYedboy]

Ahhh, perhaps I used the wrong terminology, I was thinking of comparing a gas boiler combi vs gas boiler condensing and hot water cylinder vs gas boiler and one of those big insulated round flat topped hot water cylinders (gledhill boilermate are they called?) and using a normal 4 person family using each, apologies for not using the correct terminology (I'm not a plumber, more of an interested bodger really!)

 

[pipeslice]

Buy a drill and go threw to next doors connect into there`s

- drill £60
-fittings £40
- when theres is not on

+ 100% carbon free
+ 100% recycleable

And 6 numbers for saturday

15,22,28,32,38 and 42

You may have to share with all english plumbers

 

[DIYedboy]

Like that idea..............good neighbours are worth their weight........................in gas!

 

[stem]

Why do you think that a heat pump powered from electricity is cheaper to run than gas?

I don't claim to be an expert on heat pumps, but there are two reasons why I came to that conclusion as follows:

1. The max efficiency quoted for a gas boiler is in the 90's%, and I understand that is not always the case depending on various factors. Lets be generous and say that it's 100% so for every £1 spent on gas we would get £1 of heat.

Heat pumps I understand do not use the energy to generate heat, they just move existing heat from one place to another. Hence the efficiency. The principle is like a fridge, the inside gets cold and the black condenser tubes at the back get warm. With heat pumps I've seen claims of up to 300% efficiency, if so for £1 of electricity spent you would get £3 of heat.

I accept it's not as straight forward as that, and there are other factors involved for example electricity does cost more than gas, but you would also gain the standing charge if you didn't have a gas supply.

2. Where I work, there are 5 identical detached office units 500 metre square floor space and about 3 years old. The first 3 are heated by gas fired radiators, but for some reason, the last 2 by heat pumps.

One company occupies two units, one with gas boiler & one with heat pumps. When we took our premises, our MD wasn't sure whether to take the remaining unit with the heat pumps or one with the gas, so he viewed the other occupied units and asked about the running costs. He was told that the energy costs for both units over the first year were "virtually identical"

So where's the saving? The unit with the heat pumps also provides cooling in the summer, in the unit with the gas fired heating they opened the windows.

We now occupy the other unit with heat pumps and enjoy "free" air conditioning in the summer, courtesy of the saving.

 

[Agile]

Thats what I thought! You have not done any calculations to see what the relevant costs are !

Heat pumps are largely a con by those who seek to supply and install them! They are not cost effective or saving any carbon in the UK !

An electric fire is 100% efficient but that does not make them a best choice for heating your home!

Tony

 

[BigBurner]

Why do you think that a heat pump powered from electricity is cheaper to run than gas?

Please include the figures which you are relying on in your reply.

Tony

A water sourced heat pump (a running stream) will be cheaper to run than gas. An air sourced? mmmm, no.

 

[BigBurner]

3 beds, 1 bathroom? A quality high flow combi around 40kW will be great. Look at the Broag 39C with integral weather compensation.

 

[BigBurner]

We now occupy the other unit with heat pumps and enjoy "free" air conditioning in the summer, courtesy of the saving.

It is not free as you have to pay to run the heat pump. In properly designed, insulated and ventilated home a/c in not needed in the UK.

So if running costs are identical, why buy something that costs about 3 to 4 times more to install?

 

[Deleted member 105431]

3 beds, 1 bathroom? A quality high flow combi around 40kW will be great. Look at the Broag 39C with integral weather compensation.

I wouldn't rely on his advice, you could write his cv on the back of a postage stamp.

 

[stem]

Thats what I thought! You have not done any calculations to see what the relevant costs are !

Ah yes calculations, they're the answer to everything aren't they. What about the practical? Two identical buildings, one with gas, one with heat pumps. The heat pump building has the lowest energy cost.

You can calculate the figures for two cars to work out which is the fastest, but the proof is on the test track.

When you say "relevant costs" I assume you also mean installation & servicing. I agree these are more expensive than gas and stated so in my original post.

Anyway, I did say "can be cheaper"not "are cheaper" to run, just based on my personal experience.

An electric fire is 100% efficient but that does not make them a best choice for heating your home.

Absolutely. As I said electricity is more expensive than gas, if you are comparing the same or similar efficiencies. But we're not. For example Bosch Worcester claim "an air source heat pump can produce up to 5 times more heat energy to the home than the electrical energy it consumes"

See here

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/ho...tions/how-efficient-are-air-source-heat-pumps

It is not free as you have to pay to run the heat pump

Of course. My point is, that over a year, the running cost for heating and cooling with the heat pump is the same as just the heating with gas, so effectively there is no extra cost incurred by the cooling. It's "free"

Why buy something that costs about 3 to 4 times more to install?

I know this is the problem at the moment and I did state that in my original post.

 

[mickyg]

I think there is an argument for both sides in the heat pump debate. It is true that the cost to install and maintain most heat pump set ups can be quite scary, and the savings don't always add up like the manufacturers claim, so in the short term it may not be a worthwhile investment. However, for a new build I think it is worth some serious consideration. Gas supplies are not exactly abundant in the world and will not last forever. As supplies slow down, the price of gas will rocket. Electricity on the other hand is here to stay, with multiple ways of producing it and with the world beginning to accept nuclear as the only sensible answer for future of clean affordable supply. A bore hole for a GSHP, should, in theory, be good for 100years or so, so it is "possibly" a good investment and worth some consideration.