When is double insulated lighting not double insulated?

[dave163]

OK so I'm hoping to fit new ceiling pendant lights in several of my rooms and I order some lovely fittings from Amazon UK and one or two other UK-based online electrical suppliers.

Sparky comes around and hanges them but refuses to connect them because the chandeliers are metal and their wiring is not (according to him) double insulated. The wire coming out the lights is a sheathed twin cable (ie on the outside appearance there is one cable which is dual core as it sheaths around an internal blue and brown cable). I expect you know what I mean.

There is no kitemark on any of the light fittings to say it's dual insulated. I spoke to one of the lighting companies who contacted the factory in China who told them to tell me that of course the light is dual insulated as it has a sheathing cable around the live and neutral. Sparky says that's not good enough.

So either I have to send them back for a refund (unlikely as they have been opened and hung in place, just not connected) or Sparky is offering to rewire the lights with an earth cable, but he tells me that he has to charge me several hundred pounds as it's really fiddly difficult work.

What should I do? I'm reluctant to send them back, not least because I rather like them and there is evidently no guarentee that I won't be in a similar position in a month's time if I order other similar looking lights, I gues they all come out the same factory.

Incidentally as far as I know the wiring on the lighting circuit is earthed.

 

[deadshort]

Hi, pictures please!

Regards,

DS

 

[EFLImpudence]

Could we have a picture please or at least a link to the fitting.

Is the light 230V or 12V?

I am not sure what the problem is.
The manufacturer states the fitting is double insulated.
All that really means is the manufacturer has made it so that it is not possible for a live wire to contact the metal parts of the body.

The electrician must consider that it is poorly made and not d.i. or the manufacturer lied.

So, why did he not just earth it.

 

[dave163]

Several different light fittings but all fairly similar, like this one:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41d3R67+cZL.jpg

ie metal frame, three or five arms with bulbs on the end.

The cable going out from fitting which needs to be connected to the existing wires in the ceiling looks like this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AN1dydsmsWE/UGwTdRoahaI/AAAAAAAAAEE/JlP9dHN2RkM/s1600/2+Core+Cable.jpg

Sparky says each light fitting needs an earth cable too so proposes to strip out the cable for each light, and fit a three core cable, drilling a hole somewhere in the metal frame to connect it to. And charge me a bucket in the process.

All 230 volts, standard SES or ES light bulbs.

 

[mfarrow]

If you have confirmation in writing I would assume the UK supplier has done their homework. But... it needs to be marked really. I don't see how these manufacturers get away with it. What testing has been carried out to verify the DI claim?

If the electrician starts drilling holes he's taking liabilities and he cannot be sure of the connections between different parts, unless he does fault and possibly destructive testing.

 

[stem]

There have been several discussions about this. There's a recent example here

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I order some lovely fittings from Amazon UK

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41d3R67%2BcZL.jpg

Did you buy the light from Amazon, or one of the sellers in Amazon Marketplace?

There is no kitemark on any of the light fittings to say it's dual insulated.

There wouldn't be - the kitemark is a UK product and service quality certification mark which is owned and operated by The British Standards Institution (BSI Group), and doesn't contain specification information. By the sounds of it this light couldn't get a BSI kitemark anyway.

What it should have is a CE mark, and if it's double insulated it will have this symbol on it somewhere:

If it doesn't then it is not double insulated, no matter what the maker or the seller say. But even if it does have the symbol, it might be fake - the light may still not be DI.

I spoke to one of the lighting companies who contacted the factory in China who told them to tell me that of course the light is dual insulated as it has a sheathing cable around the live and neutral.

If it doesn't have the symbol they are lying to you.

Sparky says that's not good enough.

He's absolutely right.

So either I have to send them back for a refund (unlikely as they have been opened and hung in place, just not connected)

That would be a problem if you'd simply changed your mind. If they are electrically unsafe then you're entitled to the refund even though they've been hung.

or Sparky is offering to rewire the lights with an earth cable, but he tells me that he has to charge me several hundred pounds as it's really fiddly difficult work.

Politely decline that offer.

What should I do? I'm reluctant to send them back, not least because I rather like them

They might kill someone.

and there is evidently no guarentee that I won't be in a similar position in a month's time if I order other similar looking lights, I gues they all come out the same factory.

No guarantee at all if you keep on buying Chinese tat from chancers on Amazon or eBay.

 

[Monkeh]

I order some lovely fittings from Amazon UK

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41d3R67%2BcZL.jpg

Did you buy the light from Amazon, or one of the sellers in Amazon Marketplace?

Amazon images come from images-amazon.com. Yes, .com. Why would they bother with images-amazon.co.uk? It serves no purpose.

 

[ericmark]

I had a similar problem. The wiring in my case in my fathers house with pre-1966 so no earth wire. The electricians had been warned before starting that the house had problems and to get around the problems a sub-main was going to be used. The plaster was falling off the walls so ceiling and walls all re-plastered but the electricians had failed to take the opportunity to re-wire the lights.

So because they were scheme members they had to follow regulations which in turn meant the light had to be class II.

When I looked at the internet there were many 2D light fittings which all looked the same. But to comply I needed that

sign on the lamp. Knowing it was class II was not good enough so I paid around £60 for a light I could get for £30 just to get the sticker on it.

If I had been fitting the light it would not have mattered what sticker was on the light I would consider if it was safe or not and if I deemed it safe I would fit it. But scheme members have not got that option they must have that sticker.

As to altering existing lamps to have an earth that is not really an option. The type testing considers many points and with some fittings using an earth could also cause a problem.

In my house with all lighting RCD protected I would not be unduly worried. In my father-in-laws house it would be very different. But for a customer it would be simple "No sorry they don't comply".

Personally the picture seems hideous. Either there a fixed fitting or a suspended fitting but idea of a fixed fitting being suspended on a chain seems daft.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Amazon images come from images-amazon.com. Yes, .com. Why would they bother with images-amazon.co.uk? It serves no purpose.

OK - sorry - I'd never noticed

 

[kai]

Purely from experience, that looks like a class ONE lighting fitting, where an earth MUST be connected, if wired in the UK.

Maybe in the Maker's Home Market in China, there has never been any requirement to earth their lighting circuits, Class One or Class two.

 

[flameport]

I spoke to one of the lighting companies who contacted the factory in China who told them to tell me that of course the light is dual insulated as it has a sheathing cable around the live and neutral. Sparky says that's not good enough.

It isn't good enough, since that only means the flex / cable is DI.

Other considerations are where connections are made between the various wires (typically in the central section of the light) - for DI, these must be totally enclosed in an insulated container.
All of the wiring internally must be DI, including where it passes through each metal arm or stem.
The lampholders must be plastic, and a plastic insulating sleeve is typically used at the point where the plastic lampholder is screwed into the metal arm of the fitting.

I would have expected lights of the style shown to be class I with earth connection. The cost of properly manufacturing such a thing to be Class II would be significantly more than Class I, and would serve no useful purpose.

It should be easy enough to unscrew the lower centre section of one of the lights and see how the wires are connected inside.

 

[SimonH2]

Complain to Trading Standards ?
Being sold as something they are not, and hence dangerous. Thus the seller is committing a criminal act by selling them.

On the other hand, Trading STandards cannot (anecdotally) keep up with the flood of cheap (and dangerous) tat from abroad.

 

[dave163]

Thanks for replies so far. I'm rather annoyed to say the least - I have three light fittings now hung but not operational and I will have to pay, whether someone to take them down and post them back and try to get a refund, or whether to ask someone to rewire them with an earth. No indication this would be an issue either with the UK lighting company that sold me one or with Amazon UK through whom I bought the others. Are consumers really supposed to order lights from UK suppliers and chedck when they arrive that they have a kitemark stamped somewhere, then check that the kitemark is genuine and not a forgery, and confirm with the factory, and confirm that the factory is telling the truth with an independent sparky? Sounds a lot easier just to suck it up, grit my teeth and pay someone to rewire it for me. What could go wrong?

 

[stillp]

You don't have to check for a kitemark, which is an optional mark, as has already been stated. However (almost) any electrical accessory or appliance placed on the market in the European Economic Area since the seventies must carry a CE mark.
Of course it could just be a forgery, but that just adds to the offence.