Advice needed on "double insulated" metal light fitting

[Hotrod99]

Needing some advice for installing these lights safely, they are deemed as double insulated, but only if the supplied enclosed connection box and its sheathing are used and feed to the wiring connections outside of the fittings rose.

the pendants have a metal rose that attaches by 2 screws to the metal ceiling bracket, the pendant is hung on a metal chain and the light itself is metal with glass framing

http://www.lauraashley.com/uk/ceili...-brass-glass-frame-pendant-light/invt/3650506

There was no space for a terminations to be fed up into the ceiling so I installed them using wago lever lock connectors instead of the supplied connection box, and the wago's are now sited within the metal rose.

From what I can see, the light is now not double insulated, so in a fault condition the metal rose and frame could become live as there is no termination on the rose for an earth.

Has anyone experience of similar installs, and what is the best work around to make them safe. Lots of confusing answers around the web!

Only things I can think of is earthing the rose and metal ceiling bracket (but this could cause further dangers) or digging space in the plaster above the rose and locating all connectors outside of the metal rose and using the rubbish connector box and sheath provided

Read more: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/...-ceiling-pendant-lights.497028/#ixzz56AooKJxs

 

[mwatsonxx]

Deleted - Op didn't like the advice.

 

[ericmark]

I used one of these

I bought it here many reasons, one was the ceiling rose is earthed even if the lamp is not, I would not expect a good earth through chain so the fitting is class II, but also it was heavy, and holding up a heavy unit while you connect it is not easy. So everything connected on the floor then simply slide in place.

 

[Lectrician]

It is these horrible little connectors that make the fitting class 2.

With loop in / out, it’s impossible.

 

[Hotrod99]

are there no manufacturers making a product suitable for installing in the rose? Would putting the earth to the rose be creating further dangers?

 

[Taylortwocities]

are there no manufacturers making a product suitable for installing in the rose? Would putting the earth to the rose be creating further dangers?

Most manufacturers make products for an international market. Most of those product destinations do not do things the way we do. You’ll not find loop in at ceiling lights in other countries.
Usually there’s only two wires.

 

[Hotrod99]

Most manufacturers make products for an international market. Most of those product destinations do not do things the way we do. You’ll not find loop in at ceiling lights in other countries.
Usually there’s only two wires.

Thanks, useful info, i am guessing that hundreds of lights similar in design to this are being installed by non qualified people who don't realise that they are turning the light into class 1 by placing wiring or connectors inside the rose.

 

[ericmark]

In the same way as a 13A plug may be class I but the item it connects is class II I can see no reason why the ceiling rose can't be class I and the lamp class II with the plug in ceiling rose I have shown.

The other method is to use a junction box

these will allow the ceiling rose to be removed and for a single cable to go to the light as with most other countries, I am uncertain as to if the cable needs an earth core going from this box to the class II lamp, it does not need the earth core, but not sure on regulations as to if it needs to be provided even when not used.

The point is there is nothing to stop you using the fitting in the UK, it just requires some thought on how to safely do it.

I would agree that where the special class II JB which comes with the lamp is not used, then there is a danger, however that is the same with any appliance, you can't modify the unit and retain the class II status. The worst I saw was a rota broach which was in essence a drill on a mag mount base, the drill was class II and the base was class I since they were connected together as a single unit the guy testing saw the class II sticker on the drill and tested the whole assembly as class II and missed the fact that the earth wire had come off.

I am sure there are many other times when the mixture of class II and class I has caused problems, however this is why an electrician is considered to be a skill, he has to be able to look after the safety of himself and others.

 

[JohnW2]

In the same way as a 13A plug may be class I ...

I have to say that I've never seen such an animal.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Can't see/enlarge any of the images.

 

[Hotrod99]

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Why did you think that that was supposed to go outside the light?

 

[Hotrod99]

Why did you think that that was supposed to go outside the light?

from the drawing they provided, i can't see how the light can still be double insulated if any single sheathed cable or connector is located inside the metal rose, in a fault condition the metal rose would become live. Am i missing something?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

from the drawing they provided,

That drawing does not tell you to put the connector block outside.

i can't see how the light can still be double insulated if any single sheathed cable or connector is located inside the metal rose, in a fault condition the metal rose would become live. Am i missing something?

Are you not missing the fact that there aren't supposed to be any unsheathed, or single insulated cables inside it? The supply cable certainly won't be. What sort of cable runs from the rose down to the lamp holder?

 

[ericmark]

There are issues, but more to do with weight than the double insulated status. The ceiling rose must be able to support 5 kg that's what the regulations state, and two raw plugs into plaster board are not really man enough for 5 kg.

This is the issue I had with my mothers house, heavy light fittings and silly ways to hold them onto the ceiling, it really does need to be screwed into a beam, and to fix the side screws after with all that weight is asking for problems, hence why I went for the slide in ceiling rose, it also removes all the problems with class II as the ceiling rose is earthed it is only the light fitting which is class II.

There are cheaper versions the

kilk ceiling rose is less than £4 and it will also need a back box

it does not have the hook of the other unit to my mind worth the extra money to get the unit with hook, you have spent £140 on the light fitting the polished brass hook would make it look good.

For the extra £21.18 it would make the job look right, and make it easy to fit. I found the unit easy to install and could be done with ease by one person. OK maybe a little bigger than the silly unit supplied with lamp, but really you don't want a lamp like that falling off the ceiling, not only would it damage the fitting, if it was to hit anyone it would hurt.

The klik ceiling rose has the same hole spacing as the standard conduit box, at one time I had them as flex outlets for my bedside lights, however now swapped for GU10 pods, most ceiling roses are designed to support 5 kg however most simply use the supply cord, to hold the chain the only one I could find was the one shown.