Which? scores on most reliable boiler

[Dan Robinson]

Also people don't realise how worthless Which reviews are due to the methodology.

What are the flaws in the methodology?

Which ask their OWN members about their experiences with boilers.

Which members can afford to subscribe to their magazine because they want to buy the best products.

Which members are all social class A/B and can afford to use the best installer and the best boiler. They have them serviced every year because upmarket people do that!

Worcester and Vaillant advertise their boilers using luxury homes and ladies thus promoting the idea that their boilers are those up market people are buying.

To get a fair market sample you would need to contact a 1000 sample across the whole UK and social groups. Only then would the budget boilers be properly represented. There would be problems even doing that unless you knocked on 1000 doors!

I repair boilers and most I visit are the lesser brands. This is mostly because they break down more often but this is usually as a result of poor installation and no maintenence rather than a failure of the boiler part. Many use the same parts anyway.

That's useful info - so a good installation and yearly service can make all the difference regardless of brand?

Indeed.

But don't think that good marketing means a superior boiler.

I would have a Vokera much sooner than I would have a WB. But then thanks to VC, I have a very good understanding of the boilers capabilities.

 

[JohnD]

removed due to stalkers

 

[Dan Robinson]

I have done so several times.


Are you telling no manufacturer has ever given money to Which magazine?

Are you telling me that Which magazine has carried out laboratory tests on domestic boilers?


Your continued refusal to answer basic questions, or sway from patently foolish trains of thought lead to "abuse" as you like to call it. It keeps me amused whilst I await a meaningful answer.


Other posters have also demonstrated why the Which Survey is pointless in this matter.


You admit to not being an expert in boilers. You can not demonstrate any credible qualification for your [poor] plumbing advice. So why are you here?



So there are no ambiguities... answer these three simple questions helpfully posted in large text for the hard of reading:

Are you telling me that no manufacturer has ever given money to Which magazine?

Are you telling me that Which magazine has carried out laboratory tests on domestic boilers?

What is your profession?

 

[JohnD]

removed due to stalkers

 

[JohnD]

removed due to stalkers

 

[Dan Robinson]

Oh, and as pointed out by another member here.


The Ferroli Optimax got a Which best buy award of some sort


Must have been at the start of the financial year for Ferroli... then blew the next few lifetime's R&D and QC budgets.

 

[flameport]

Conclusions:

a. Most boilers scored similar results, in the 70% range.
b. Most Which? magazine subscribers have Worcester-Bosch boilers.
c. The most reliable boilers are made by Vokera, because these surveys always have massive bias towards those who had problems and complained. Therefore the fact that only 55 people responded means that almost no Vokera owners had problems.

 

[gasbanni]

Conclusions:

a. Most boilers scored similar results, in the 70% range.
b. Most Which? magazine subscribers have Worcester-Bosch boilers.
c. The most reliable boilers are made by Vokera, because these surveys always have massive bias towards those who had problems and complained. Therefore the fact that only 55 people responded means that almost no Vokera owners had problems.

C. Thats a very good point.

All boiler have one thing in common.....They break down.

I often ask when getting parts from the suppliers whose spares they sell most of..........and the winner is WORCESTER.

Mainly seems to be their plastic hydroblocks that become porous and spray out very fine jets of water.
The gas safe inspector said worcester are living off of a reputation they gained twenty years ago.
And some of the cheap boiler use brass fancy that !

 

[gasbanni]

You have obviously worked yourself into a frenzy of foolishness.

You're not saying anything sensible, and you continue to be abusive.

My occupation is entirely irrelevant, and is in any case none of your business.

And as is your want, you dont answer them.

 

[gas112]

BG fitted loads of worcesters and rebadged worcesters as there own and before i finished with them i got fed up constantly fixing them under warranty.

And having to tell customers to stick a boiler that had cost them a premium onto an expensive maintenance contract as it was still cheaper than paying to have it fixed every couple of years.

When a company and also users boasts and about how good its customer aftercare is as worcester are constantly doing you have to worry why they need a good after care ?

 

[Dan Robinson]

How many boilers are sold in a year in the UK?


5 million or so? I can't remember.

Makes a comparative study with Whichs' numbers look a bit pathetic doesn't it Johnny boy?

50 boilers out of (for the sake of argument) 70000?




I was at Vaillant HQ today. They are knocking out 1000 or so boilers a day on 4 production lines...... Or was it 2000? 30 person per day I think they said they aim for.



You may continue shrivelling.

Mr D still hasn't explained how Which's statistical analysis can be taken seriously with the above figures lurking in the background.

As always he thinks he is right when everyone else around him with better insight and experience say otherwise.


Can think of several adjectives to describe that but he'll go off and cry to the mods again.

 

[roguetrader]

In reality, to do a survey on a boiler is a bit silly.
The reliability of a boiler depends on so many variables.
Position, installation, other manufacturers components, water quality and chemical constituents within that water to name but a few.

The cheapest ravenheat boiler will work beautifully under lab conditions for years without failure, doing exactly the same job as a 300 series viessmann under those same conditions.

Trying to conduct a survey about one item on a system is ridiculous.

If you're brand new Bentley got filled up with chocolate milkshake instead of high grade oil and it broke down 200 yards from the dealership, youd say it was a crap car.
It's not a crap car, but its been filled up with the wrong fluids.

Which surveys, unfortunately, aren't worth the paper they a printed on.

 

[JohnD]

Just to check, if "Which" tested hundreds of cars, and surveyed many thousands of owners, and reported that reliability and owner satisfaction of Toyotas was very high, and reliability and owner satisfaction of Chevrolets was very low, you would dismiss the report as "worthless" and "meaningless?"

Would you pay more attention to a car salesman, or half a dozen randoms down the pub or on the net? Or Jeremy? Or just buy the car that was the prettiest colour?

How about if they tested hundreds of TVs, and surveyed thousands of owners, and reported that Technica and Bush sets were so bad, and such poor value, with better available at similar cost, that they recommended no-one should buy them?

I'm really interested to explore the "worthless and meaningless" idea.

 

[gas112]

A telle just plugs in you tool no outside factors.
unlike what has been pointed out about a central heating system that can be piped in wrongly causing air ingress and early failure it can have a leak on system causing repeated top up filling from loop or header tank it can be just connected to a system full of flux and water that is like oil list goes on.

So to compare a telle to a boiler shows how little you really do understand

 

[vulcancontinental]

Are you telling no manufacturer has ever given money to Which magazine?

Are you telling me that Which magazine has carried out laboratory tests on domestic boilers?

Yes, and Yes.

It has always been an essential part of the ethos that they never accept advertising, or sponsorship which might affect their impartiality.

I am surprised that you are so ignorant of these facts, when you were so quick to describe the "Which" reports as "worthless" and "meaningless." I was interested to find out the reasons for your sweeping assertions. Perhaps your ignorance played a part.

It produces reports based on its own tests and surveys, and e.g. for car tyres tests carried out in conjunction with similar consumer organisations in other European countries.

I point out this is word of mouth to me but according to someone who was a national account manager (relatively senior) with another boiler manufacturer. Which did used to test boilers, they sent them to Germany for testing, it cost the manufacturer £20,000. The cost of using the Which logo on the product was £10,000 a year. His company did it for one year, was choice for one year but couldn't afford it again.

If that is true then that rather shoots down the impartiality part, then again I might have been lied to; you could write in and ask.

Regarding cars: I'm afraid your analogy isn't accurate. The car dealer sells the car as the manufacturer delivers it after fluids and valeting.

The boiler manufacturer ships the boiler to the merchant who sells it boxed. It is then at the mercy of an installer who may follow the instructions for fitting or may take short cuts in order to keep the price down as he is quoting competitively against others.

The old fluids in the heating system are often not changed, rather like putting the oil from your 25 year old Land Rover into your new BMW.

The installer may have done a 4 year apprenticeship or a 6 week course to become Gas Safe registered and know nothing of the system the boiler is installed into.

Many boilers are now installed under government schemes free of charge to qualifying people. The installer get a very small portion of the grant money, sometimes £150 for a boiler change and looks to do 2 a dayso the incentive is in and out as there is no comeback a few months down the line when things he skipped will show up as boiler faults. The fault will be attributed to the boiler not the installer.

I know our service department carry out a lot of calls to our boiler put in by a big private company. No heating is the fault; when attending we find the wireless room thermostats used have lost signal with the receiver next to the boiler but to the customer all they know is the boiler is heating their radiators. The boiler manufacturer has no control over this.

The customer may not get the car serviced regularly but generally does as his warranty is void if he doesn't. Many boiler manufacturers, depending on what their engineer finds when he visits the installation, will honour a warranty even if the service record is incomplete though this may change soon.

These are only a few points, there are many more.

I personally don't care what you do for a living or whether you are a mod but you are wrong on very many levels in your understanding of the circumstances.