Who doesn't like a coup?

[Elsa TLC]

Aww bless, you actually believe this?

Socialism relies on the poor staying poor. They need them to remain dependent upon the state so they keep voting for more handouts. If they got wealthier, stood on their own feet and started earning more they'd start to question how much tax they're paying and would probably switch sides. It's pretty much what happened in the 1980s, there was a boom, people gained financial independence and labour almost vanished.

Wales has been almost 100% socialist ruled locally and via their assembly for decades. Are they all wealthy? No, of course not, they're all kept in their place by their rulers.

This is why Kibbutz dont operate as they used to. Socialism can work in harmony but its not likely these days.

Why would a doctor earn the same as a walnut picker.

 

[Notch7]

Why would a doctor earn the same as a walnut picker.

nobody said they should

1960s a chief executive of a business earned around 20x the lowest paid employee
2020s a chief executive of a business earns around 250 x the lowest paid employee

the major problem in the UK is wealth inequality not immigrants

Britain and the US are poor societies with some very rich people​

Where would you rather live? A society where the rich are extraordinarily rich and the poor are very poor, or one where the rich are merely very well off but even those on the lowest incomes also enjoy a decent standard of living?

Client Challenge

 

[Elsa TLC]

nobody said they should

1960s a chief executive of a business earned around 20x the lowest paid employee
2020s a chief executive of a business earns around 250 x the lowest paid employee

the major problem in the UK is wealth inequality not immigrants

Britain and the US are poor societies with some very rich people​

Where would you rather live? A society where the rich are extraordinarily rich and the poor are very poor, or one where the rich are merely very well off but even those on the lowest incomes also enjoy a decent standard of living?

Client Challenge

But that's how Kibbutz worked. Its a socialist idea that worked well in the creation of modern Israel. But as the country grew the clever wanted more.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Socialism works in very small groups of people who know and care about each other. I'm a member of a sports club that's essentially communist. Nobody gets paid, everyone helps each other.

But at a large scale, it's counter to basic human nature - which is to look after yourself and family at the expense of everyone else. Capitalism aligns with this basic behaviour, socialism requires massive levels of control to sustain the caring and sharing, e.g. threatening people with impoverishment (fines) or violence (imprisonment) if you don't give back (i.e. pay very high taxes).

In reality, those at the top of both systems always end up taking much more than their fair share. E.g. Starmer getting his many bribes and tax-free pension. Much more equal than the rest of us.

 

[Notch7]

Aww bless, you actually believe this?

Socialism relies on the poor staying poor. They need them to remain dependent upon the state so they keep voting for more handouts. If they got wealthier, stood on their own feet and started earning more they'd start to question how much tax they're paying and would probably switch sides. It's pretty much what happened in the 1980s, there was a boom, people gained financial independence and labour almost vanished.

Wales has been almost 100% socialist ruled locally and via their assembly for decades. Are they all wealthy? No, of course not, they're all kept in their place by their rulers.

Ivor Windybottom, you are incorrect

unfortunately you are not well informed at all

by the Wales is not socialist at all if you think they are you dont know what socialism is




how come countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, France, Slovenia, Germany all have progressive social democrat democracies yet have higher standard of living and far better living standards...................that destroys your argument

 

[Elsa TLC]

Socialism works in very small groups of people who know and care about each other. I'm a member of a sports club that's essentially communist. Nobody gets paid, everyone helps each other.

Spot on.. we all have a bit of the lefty in us.

But at a large scale, it's counter to basic human nature - which is to look after yourself and family at the expense of everyone else. Capitalism aligns with this basic behaviour, socialism requires massive levels of control to sustain the caring and sharing, e.g. threatening people with impoverishment (fines) or violence (imprisonment) if you don't give back (i.e. pay very high taxes).

In reality, those at the top of both systems always end up taking much more than their fair share. E.g. Starmer getting his many bribes and tax-free pension. Much more equal than the rest of us.

 

[Notch7]

Socialism works in very small groups of people who know and care about each other. I'm a member of a sports club that's essentially communist. Nobody gets paid, everyone helps each other.

But at a large scale, it's counter to basic human nature - which is to look after yourself and family at the expense of everyone else. Capitalism aligns with this basic behaviour, socialism requires massive levels of control to sustain the caring and sharing, e.g. threatening people with impoverishment (fines) or violence (imprisonment) if you don't give back (i.e. pay very high taxes).

In reality, those at the top of both systems always end up taking much more than their fair share. E.g. Starmer getting his many bribes and tax-free pension. Much more equal than the rest of us.

I agree

however there are no socialist countries in existence in Western democracies.

you are conflating market economies with more progressive democracies with socialism .

 

[Notch7]

n reality, those at the top of both systems always end up taking much more than their fair share.

that is what Farage wants to do

slash taxes for the rich and slash public services that ordinary people need

 

[Elsa TLC]

Ivor Windybottom, you are incorrect

unfortunately you are not well informed at all

by the Wales is not socialist at all if you think they are you dont know what socialism is

Socialism has grown to have many different forms

how come countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, France, Slovenia, Germany all have progressive social democrat democracies yet have higher standard of living and far better living standards...................that destroys your argument

If all the above are Socialistes then its in a different form ad there are obviously some very wealthy people living there.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

how come countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, France, Slovenia, Germany all have progressive social democrat democracies yet have higher standard of living and far better living standards...................that destroys your argument

They do well. But we never seem to be able to have this form of capitalist based socialism.

Our lot, guided by Fabian society principles are essentially communists. Socialism is just the way to get elected, then it's a creeping progression towards the end goal of the state owning and controlling everything.

The clue's in the original Fabian society logo, from before they got so secretive about their aims...

 

[noseall]

Socialism works in very small groups of people

Nonsense.

I'm a member of a sports club that's essentially communist.

Communal or cooperative you mean?

But at a large scale, it's counter to basic human nature - which is to look after yourself and family at the expense of everyone else. Capitalism aligns with this basic behaviour, socialism requires massive levels of control to sustain the caring and sharing, e.g. threatening people with impoverishment (fines) or violence (imprisonment) if you don't give back (i.e. pay very high taxes).

Socialistic ideals like paying taxes and having a police service or NHS or roads and an army are not anti-capitalist constructs. They are not mutually exclusive of one another. I admit being 'an old socialist', but not at the expense of my conservative preferences.

In reality, those at the top of both systems always end up taking much more than their fair share. E.g. Starmer getting his many bribes and tax-free pension. Much more equal than the rest of us.

Off on a tangent.

 

[Notch7]

Socialism has grown to have many different forms

Not really

Socialism is essentially: social organization that advocates the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, capital, land, etc., by the community as a whole

There are no socialist countries in the West, or in the world TBH.

The reality is that all Western countries are open market economies where the means of production is owned and run by private sector.

 

[Notch7]

They do well. But we never seem to be able to have this form of capitalist based socialism.

The reason is because we have had right wing governments since 1979

The reason the U.K. is failing so badly is because capitalists have been in control.

Our lot, guided by Fabian society principles are essentially communists. Socialism is just the way to get elected, then it's a creeping progression towards the end goal of the state owning and controlling everything.

The clue's in the original Fabian society logo, from before they got so secretive about their aims...

Good grief.


I’m not where you get this silly stuff from, it’s completely untrue……I do see Reform supporters on Facebook YouTube etc screaming about Fabian society……

This Labour government is making full use of private equity for its policies, including housing, infrastructure projects, renewable energy etc.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Good grief.


I’m not where you get this silly stuff from, it’s completely untrue……I do see Reform supporters on Facebook YouTube etc screaming about Fabian society……

I agree that it sounds unbelievable, because it's so ridiculous. I thought it was a conspiracy theory at first.

But it's 100% true. Starmer and many others in the cabinet are members of this insane cult.

On the Horizon | Fabian Society

Fabian Society

fabians.org.uk

Every single Labour prime minister has been a Fabian and if Labour wins in July Keir Starmer will join their ranks. Keir was a Fabian before he was elected to parliament, and served on our executive committee. In 2021, he wrote The Road Ahead, a Fabian pamphlet setting out his vision of a fairer, more secure and prosperous Britain, built on Labour values.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

The Fabian society founder George Bernard Shaw speaking in 1931...

Founded in 1884. One (unproven but credible) theory is that Orwell's book 1984 was inspired by the idea of what the UK would look like in 100 years if the Fabians ran it. Turns out it was pretty accurate (tracking ID app, mass surveillance etc).