Wiring garage lights to roller door control

[ChrisZx]

Another one about my potential garage wiring. My roller door has a courtesy light output, 230V 500W max. This isn't the exact model but it's very close http://www.linkcontrols.co.uk/files/LC-2308.pdf

I will be having 4 x 65W LED strip lights on 2 two-way switches, fed by an FCU off the same radial the roller control unit is powered by.

First question, maybe I'm being stupid but I don't have the knowledge to be sure of my own reasoning. Can I wire the courtesy light live and neutral straight to the LED strip lights? The idea being it wouldn't matter whether the lights were on or off when the door opens, they would come on anyway for 3 mins. In my mind the fact they're both fed by the same radial makes it ok but I'm not sure. Would I even need the neutral from the roller control?

Second question comes off the back of the first, presuming it is possible. It would be nice to know what is powering the lights. For example when the roller door is powering them, I could flip the switches as much as I like and wouldn't know whether I'd left them on or off until the 3 minutes is up. Is there a solution to this? Standalone neon indicators for the switches?

Maybe I'm off my rocker though and this is all BS!?

 

[EFLImpudence]

First question, maybe I'm being stupid but I don't have the knowledge to be sure of my own reasoning. Can I wire the courtesy light live and neutral straight to the LED strip lights?

Yes.

The idea being it wouldn't matter whether the lights were on or off when the door opens, they would come on anyway for 3 mins. In my mind the fact they're both fed by the same radial makes it ok but I'm not sure.

Same circuit would be better - so that they could be isolated together.

Would I even need the neutral from the roller control?

Probably not.
If not, you could connect from the cable to one of the switches if it does not contain a neutral but it it likely will as you will be satrting from the same place for door and lights.

Second question comes off the back of the first, presuming it is possible. It would be nice to know what is powering the lights. For example when the roller door is powering them, I could flip the switches as much as I like and wouldn't know whether I'd left them on or off until the 3 minutes is up. Is there a solution to this?

If you configure the switches so that the light is 'off' (even though 'on' from the door) when both switches are 'up' or 'down'.

Standalone neon indicators for the switches?

That would require some device to avoid back feed from the door power to the switch wiring.

If looking at the switches is adequate, then probably not worth the bother.

 

[EFLImpudence]

 

[EFLImpudence]

Regarding the FCU you mention -

It will be impossible to place it to cover both the mains supply and door supply, so you may as well not bother with it.

What is the rating of the MCB protecting the door circuit?

 

[ChrisZx]

Looks like I've got you thinking  Two way switching is more important to me than knowing for certain whether the switches are active, by the sounds of it they're mutually exclusive though.

An alternative I wondered about, again don't know if it's possible, but what if I fed only live from the roller to the strip lights, but fed both live and neutral to it's built in courtesy bulb. If the neutral on the roller is switched, would that mean courtesy bulb would only light up if the door was powering the lights? At least I would know it was active.

I've got two other external light circuits to feed so I need the fcu anyway. Not sure what you mean by covering both circuits though.

Whole garage will be fed by 32A mcb, hence fcu for lights. Currently running the door off a 5amp plug in an extension lead until I sort it out properly, haven't had any problems. I got it 2nd hand and it still had a 5amp fcu attached so I assumed it was fine!

 

[EFLImpudence]

Looks like I've got you thinking  Two way switching is more important to me than knowing for certain whether the switches are active, by the sounds of it they're mutually exclusive though.

Yes but you can tell if the switches are on by looking at them.

An alternative I wondered about, again don't know if it's possible, but what if I fed only live from the roller to the strip lights, but fed both live and neutral to it's built in courtesy bulb.

I don't understand that.

If the neutral on the roller is switched, would that mean courtesy bulb would only light up if the door was powering the lights? At least I would know it was active.

I think you are confusing yourself.

There is no problem doing what you want to do.

I've got two other external light circuits to feed so I need the fcu anyway.

Ok.

Not sure what you mean by covering both circuits though.

Well, you wouldn't be able to protect the mains supply to the lights AND the circuit from the door panel to the lights with one FCU.

Whole garage will be fed by 32A mcb, hence fcu for lights.

Fair enough.

Currently running the door off a 5amp plug in an extension lead until I sort it out properly, haven't had any problems. I got it 2nd hand and it still had a 5amp fcu attached so I assumed it was fine!

If it still works with that when the lights are connected then you can connect the door and lights to that circuit.
Even if you have to put in a 10A fuse, it will still be alright.
The instructions say the door panel has a 6.5A anti-surge fuse, so ...

 

[SimonH2]

Well, you wouldn't be able to protect the mains supply to the lights AND the circuit from the door panel to the lights with one FCU.

Use one FCU - connect both the door controller and lights to the load side of it. Downside is that if the fuse blows then you lose both the door control and lights.

Another connection scheme I can think of is to use a changeover relay powered from the light output on the door controller. When not powered, it connects the lights to the switches, when powered on by the door controller, it connects the lights to their supply*. This allows door controller and lights to be on separate circuits (separate FCUs) with the relay providing isolation between them. It also means that when the lights are on due to the door controller, there's no backfeed to the light switches, so all the usual techniques (separate light not controlled by the door controller would seem to be one obvious one) should work to show whether the switches are on or off.

* Assuming the common 2-way setup with L1-L1, L2-L2, C-C, with L1 connected to L and L2 controlling the load, then the relay just switches the lights from L2 to L1 when energised. Leave at least one light directly connected to L2 and it'll show the state of the manual switches.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Use one FCU - connect both the door controller and lights to the load side of it. Downside is that if the fuse blows then you lose both the door control and lights.

I said that.

Another connection scheme I can think of is to use a changeover relay powered from the light output on the door controller. When not powered, it connects the lights to the switches, when powered on by the door controller, it connects the lights to their supply*. This allows door controller and lights to be on separate circuits (separate FCUs) with the relay providing isolation between them. It also means that when the lights are on due to the door controller, there's no backfeed to the light switches, so all the usual techniques (separate light not controlled by the door controller would seem to be one obvious one) should work to show whether the switches are on or off.

The backfeed is not a problem unless the suggested neon was used.

* Assuming the common 2-way setup with L1-L1, L2-L2, C-C, with L1 connected to L and L2 controlling the load, then the relay just switches the lights from L2 to L1 when energised.Leave at least one light directly connected to L2 and it'll show the state of the manual switches.

I don't see the advantage.

I'm not sure if the door operates the light for three minutes from opening or stays on until three minutes after it closes.
Either way, unless the OP switches the switches on while the lights are already on because the door is open, then obviously the switches will still be off when the three minutes has elapsed.

 

[ChrisZx]

Another connection scheme I can think of is to use a changeover relay powered from the light output on the door controller. When not powered, it connects the lights to the switches, when powered on by the door controller, it connects the lights to their supply*. This allows door controller and lights to be on separate circuits (separate FCUs) with the relay providing isolation between them. It also means that when the lights are on due to the door controller, there's no backfeed to the light switches, so all the usual techniques (separate light not controlled by the door controller would seem to be one obvious one) should work to show whether the switches are on or off.

* Assuming the common 2-way setup with L1-L1, L2-L2, C-C, with L1 connected to L and L2 controlling the load, then the relay just switches the lights from L2 to L1 when energised. Leave at least one light directly connected to L2 and it'll show the state of the manual switches.

All makes sense apart from having an indicator on L2. If I have an indicator taking live from L2, then use a relay to connect L1 and L2, then surely L2 is energised and the indicator will be on regardless of the switches?

I'm not sure if the door operates the light for three minutes from opening or stays on until three minutes after it closes.

FYI I'm pretty sure it's 3 minutes after the motor does anything, so 3 minutes after any movement of the door ends.

Either way, unless the OP switches the switches on while the lights are already on because the door is open, then obviously the switches will still be off when the three minutes has elapsed.

Yes we're hardly talking about earth shattering consequences here! I'm sure I'll manage just having to remember it. I was just wondering because it would be a neat solution if possible.

Yes but you can tell if the switches are on by looking at them.

Ah yes I hadn't appreciated what you meant until now. My first idle thought was then I could use big external switches to make them easier to see from a distance. My second was then don't those switches have configurable neon indicators?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-1g-2-...odUeUJfA#product_additional_details_container

Is there any way I could do it with something like this? Or would backfeed always be a problem?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Is there any way I could do it with something like this? Or would backfeed always be a problem?

Unless you have something like Simon suggests then the neon will illuminate with the door switch.

Plus you would need 4 core & earth to take the neutral to the far switch.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Same circuit would be better - so that they could be isolated together.

You say that as if there is a choice.

What am I missing? The roller door has a supply, and it provides a courtesy light output. How would you make it use a different supply for that?

Anyway....

Similar to Simon I'd say use the output to switch a contactor and have the lights on a different circuit - that would avoid any back-feeding issues, and would mean that the lights could be used to provide light to work on the door if that was ever needed.

 

[SimonH2]

All makes sense apart from having an indicator on L2. If I have an indicator taking live from L2, then use a relay to connect L1 and L2, then surely L2 is energised and the indicator will be on regardless of the switches?

You missed the bit where the relay does NOT link L1 and L2. Instead of connecting the lights directly to L2, you connect them to the common of the relay contacts. With the relay off, the NC contact of the relay connects the lights to L2 on the switches so the switches work the lights normally. When the relay is on, then the NO contact connects the lights to L1 (L) so the door controller puts the lights on - BUT, L2 is still not connected to L1 other than by the switches so the switches, and any lights/indicators connected directly to them, will still work normally.
The slight downside is that unless you use a make-before-break relay, then there will be a very very short power interruption to the lights as the relay switches (if the manual switches are set to on) - but given this will be a fraction of a second, I doubt that it would be a problem.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Let's go back to basics.

Chris - why do you want the main garage lighting to be triggered by the door? Wouldn't the 3 minutes courtesy light give you ample time to get to a switch?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Same circuit would be better - so that they could be isolated together.

You say that as if there is a choice.

Obviously there is.

What am I missing?

I am beginning to wonder.

The roller door has a supply, and it provides a courtesy light output. How would you make it use a different supply for that?

You can't.
Chris was talking about linking it to the separate garage light circuit.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This is what he said:

The idea being it wouldn't matter whether the lights were on or off when the door opens, they would come on anyway for 3 mins. In my mind the fact they're both fed by the same radial makes it ok but I'm not sure. Would I even need the neutral from the roller control?

Now, whether the garage lights are or are not separate from any other circuit doesn't matter. If they are going to be powered by the output from the door controller then they are going to be on the same circuit as the garage door.

Same circuit would be better - so that they could be isolated together.

"Better" cannot exist without a corresponding "worse".

So what would be a worse way to have the lights turned on by the door controller that was not having them on the same circuit as the door?