Wood floor erupted like Vesuvius! Advice needed...

[Andwarr]

I recently hired a professional to lay solid oak wood flooring throughout oour ground floor level, and after around 7 weeks, a long section has warped massively, bowing up like a volcano about 3 to 4 inches high.

The 'pro' has proved reluctant to come and address the issue. After one visit, he has expressed a belief that there must be a leak under the flooring, but my belief is that it is due to the lack of an adequate expansion gap left by the guy who laid it (he showed lack of due care and attention during the process). He said he will come back to make damp readings, and if there is no leak he will make good the problem. I'm confident there's no leak, but I understand that concrete holds residual moisture. Am I right in thinking if there was an ambient amount of moisture in the concrete before he laid the floor, the pro should have applied a membrane or treated the surface first?

I'm hoping one of you pros can offer me some tips to look out for, or things to bear in mind when this guy comes back - such as what the readings should be - as he seems very reluctant to admit fault and I believe he'll try and fob me off. The giant eruption is around two metres long and is very similar all the way along, but despite this the wood is only touching the wall at one end. To me, this indicates the expansion gap was uneven in the first place, or the wood would be touching all the way down.
He also told me that the wood would not expand lengthways, so I showed him the floor is also pressed tight against the wall at the end of the planks as well. To me this indicated there must have been an inadequate gap in the first place if it couldn't have expanded that way. He then tried to change his story.

Sorry for the long post, but would massively appreciate any thoughts so I have a more fact based knowledge before he comes back...

Thanks guys.

 

[mattysupra]

Need more info. Is it floating or fully bonded ? Is the concrete base new or old? How old/new? Did they check moister of subfloor with hygrometer( normally yellow box 10"*10" stuck to floor for minimum of 24hrs) What is the maximum length/width without a break? And what species of wood is it?

 

[Andwarr]

Thanks Matty - here's all the info I have.

1. It's fully bonded solid oak. Plank spec: 125mmx19mm.

2. Room surface area is 2m x 2m, so this is the max measurement without a break.

3. He used a combination of glue and secret nailing.

4. The house was newly refurbished, and the concrete looked quite new, but I can't say that with any degree certainty. I know that in the affected area is part concrete, but also an area is tiled flooring (it used to be a kitchen)

5. I would assume he did not check moisture, as there was no 24hr reading taken.

I can also tell you the wood was only left to acclimatise for 3 nights before being laid, and was left in it's packaging.

The 'pro' was pretty poor as he caused damage to skirts and cabinets, left glue and scratches everywhere, so I have had little confidence from the start. The guy I'm dealing with is not the guy who did the work.

 

[mattysupra]

o.k. for that size area they have done something big wrong. Or maybe there is a leak? Im abit confused by saying secret nail. You can only do this with a wooden subfloor. You also if gluing should not only glue one area and not the other (if changing to WOODEN subfloor and nailing.) You should do the same all way through. Reasons being i dont think are your problem so wont go into that. As for moister test. Well a hygrometer 24hr test is the only test to british standard, there are other tests you can do which work as well if not better, but this is the only BRITISH STANDARD test (BS5325)! (do you understand that? if not read that bit again)Im guessing you either have moister in concrete base or lack of exspansion. Take beading off and see if touching anywhere. Width mainly as lenth on fully bonded not as important. Also floor should be acclimatized for longer than that to. Unless you really know what your doing taken subfloor moister test + air moister test +air and subfloor temperature test aswell as wood tests, well you should leave to acclimatize longer. But you never know he may of done this and you just may have a leak! check exspansion and report back to me. Also do you know what glue was used? trowel size? and maybe colour of glue. Also how old is the house? Was concrete shiny and dense or normal dusty? Was a primer or levelling compound used before install? What sort of tiles are down? ceramic? Was a subfloor prep done on these?

 

[Andwarr]

Thanks for your help on this. I'll answer where I can.

My wife says the glue appeared orange/brown when she saw an unfinished area.

They did no levelling or priming, and there was no subfloor prep done according to the quote documentation.

The house is 1900, and the concrete was a normal dusty colour. The tiles were old and a matt/terracotta ceramic look. They were under laminate when we moved in, so I'm going by an 'in progress' photo my wife took, as I only saw them briefly.

Regarding expansion - yes, the wood is touching the walls in a number of places around the 'trauma' area. However, it's not touching the wall all the way alongside the erupting area. Only in the corner along the side and in a few of places at the ends of the boards. The board ends aren't cut evenly against the wall and have a stepped appearance, so touch in a number of places. the pro, on his initial inspection, said "No one cuts the ends of the boards evenly", so the stepped affect is normal and professional.

Thanks again mate.

PS - The floor runs into another room which has a floorboard base - so guess this is why it was nailed in part.

 

[mattysupra]

o.k. When i fit a floor the gap will be even. Its rare to get a fitter that can and will do this. But it not wrong to have it uneven as long as with in the tolerence allowed! As for where the floor is hitting~ it dont matter if the floor only hitting in one place and not the other, if its toucher anywhere at all there is not enough exspansion left! This is your first problem!! This has been caused by one of 4 things-
1 Not enougth exspansion left.
2 flooring was to dry before laying (not acclimatized to humidity of house)
3 subfloor rh was above 75% (no dpm or not dry)
4 Possible leak of water ??? you should see this but not always.
Out of interest are these tiles about 6"*6"? red dull tiles, Quarry tiles? before 1965 these do not have dpm. Also subfloor should be leveled within 3mm in 3meters. And must be primed or self levelled with acrylic or water based screed. Not latex. This has poor shear strength.!

 

[JohnD]

You mention photos, can you post them on here?

We like pictures







//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=73320

 

[mattysupra]

You mention photos, can you post them on here?

We like pictures







//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=73320[/QUOTE] missed that one ! Photo's please! and that little link in blue at bottom of johnD's comment shows you how to do it if you dont know.

 

[WoodYouLike]

T
Regarding expansion - yes, the wood is touching the walls in a number of places around the 'trauma' area. However, it's not touching the wall all the way alongside the erupting area. Only in the corner along the side and in a few of places at the ends of the boards.

Just an addition to this 'locally' expansion, that does happen. An expanding floor will always take the way of the least resistance and can 'crawl' just one way (we've seen that offen, floor one end of the room butting to the wall, other end of the room still with existing expansion gap). Especially when the floor is fully bonded to the underfloor/subfloor or with a floating floor where the glue form the T&G has bonded somehow with the underlayment in one spot.
Strange, but true.

 

[Andwarr]

Thanks for your interest, gents.

Here's a couple of images to illustrate my posts:

This is how the eruption looks - the photo doesn't capture how huge it really is!

This is the floor before the work was done. I think you've got it spot on with your guess of the tile type. I've added a green line to show where the crack is.

When the guy comes to take damp readings, what sort of levels should I be looking for?

Thanks again...[/img]

 

[mattysupra]

to british standard (bs5325) the moister level should be less than 75% relative humidity (rh). this test takes 24hrs to measure. They should stick a box to the floor with a hygrometer inside. Or they may drill a hole and put a plug in the floor which they need to stick a prob into to read. If they start waving meters around with flashing lights, well this is no good. They also should of done some sort of floor prep over that floor. And def should of used a bonding primer. If they do use some sort of meter to read floor ask the name and make of it and the reading. There are some good meters out there that could be used and read different to humidity. But are still not a british standard! if you find out this i may be able to translate the reading for you.

 

[Andwarr]

That's great, thanks mate. I'll make sure I get all the details.

So you're saying they definitely should have applied some kind of floor preparation and bonding primer as standard before laying the wood? I want to arm myself with as much as I can - I appreciate you giving me the heads up!

 

[mattysupra]

do you have the install instructions for the floor? I cant say for def as i dont know what glue and floor was fitted. But 95% of manufacturers will state that a levelling compound or primer must be used on subfloor before install. End of the day a good fitter will always do a floor prep of some sort. You cant glue some thing to dusty concrete now can you! But i dont think this is your problem. This would be your problem in about another months time.!

 

[mattysupra]

www.nicfltd.org.uk/ These are people to speak to if you need to go to court etc.

 

[WoodYouLike]

Andwarr, I'm intereseted in the stack of flooring in the last picture: lots of short lengths! Did you select this floor (brand, quality) or did your fitter?