Would you like to fit a radiator without using PTFE tape

[muggles]

Haven't used PTFE for years, usually Rapid Blue sealant or sometimes Loctite 55.

I see a number of issues with your suggestion...
•. Chrome pipe can't be welded, and Chrome plating would be damaged by the heat of the welding process if your stub was half & half. You'd need to weld in a steel stub then somehow chrome plate it afterwards, which would be difficult and expensive.

• Similarly, it would be a pain for manufacturers in the radiator painting process. If they chrome plated the tails before painting the radiators, they'd have to mask the chrome which is an extra process, increasing costs. If they plated after painting, they'd need to mask the stub, paint the radiator, clean overspray off the stub, and protect the paint during the plating process.

•. Having stubs sticking out the ends of the radiators creates packaging issues as they would need to be protected from damage. The whole package for each radiator would need to be longer, using more materials that would entirely negate any saving made by no longer needing to seal with PTFE

•. It would prevent ¾" union type radiator valves being used. I regularly use these valves types on heat pump installs as they can provide a higher flow rate and less noise than 15mm valves. Heat pumps run at a much higher flow rate than boiler systems

•. It would be annoying on replacement installations where a slightly longer radiator is being replaced with a standard size. For example, a 45" long (1143mm) radiator being replaced with an 1100mm radiator. With current radiators we'd use extension tails to make up the 21mm difference at either end. With your fixed stub idea this wouldn't be possible.

Probably other reasons too but there's 5 good ones as to why this idea will never work. Sorry to pee on your bonfire.

 

[muggles]

Having fixed tails does away with the need to have screw in tails so they won't be in the box when you buy valves so nothing is thrown away. If you need to replace existing threaded tails you buy them separately.
Nothing has really changed in radiator design in decades time it was shaken up and simplified. There appears to be no need to persevere with threaded tails , why do it if you didn't have to . Removing non-biodegradable products made from PTFE has green credentials ( research teflon and it's effects on health) .
If you used 22 turns of PTFe tape on 1 tail you would use approx. 3 metres of tape per rad. Say if you get 4 rads fitted using a 10 metre roll of PTFE and Stelrad alone make 2 million rads per year then to fit them you would use 500,000 rolls of PTFE tape which have to be made and transported. No PTFE greatly reduces your carbon footprint and makes a rad more attractive to those who care about the environment.

The more I think about this, the more the "environmental benefit" argument simply doesn't stack up. In fact I think it's significantly worse than the present situation...

As per my previous post, you'd need more significantly packaging to protect the protruding tails during transport. That alone, I think, cancels the perceived benefit.

Larger packaging means more volume taken up in the transport vehicles, potentially meaning fewer radiators can fit onto each delivery and therefore requiring more vehicles to transport the same number of radiators.

Radiator valve manufacturers would still have to include tails in the valve boxes, especially if this idea was only adopted by a single radiator manufacturer. Those would then be simply thrown in the bin rather than being used, so you've got the environmental cost of making a radiator tail that's just going to be thrown away in addition to the environmental cost of making the tail that's being welded in by the radiator manufacturer. Yes maybe you could go to valve manufacturers and persuade them to produce lines that don't contain tails in the box, but then you've got different packaging processes, more products to transport to merchants who need to find more space on the shelves for the slightly different products etc etc. And if you're thinking, as above, that you can change to never selling tails with valves and having them as a separate product that's potentially more packaging too, bagged individually in plastic bags to stop them getting scratched and give somewhere for the barcode to go.

The saving on PTFE usage from an environmental point of view is vastly outweighed by the above. You'd be increasing carbon emissions, not reducing them.

 

[momckeown]

Yes I can see pitfalls in swapping or changing a rad even like for like but the majority of rads are new installations and this is the market I would like to see my idea become the industry standard. In my idea the length of rad tail does become standardized now and in the future so in time this issue ceases to be an issue. Tails seem to be generally screwed in until the flat is flush with the rad connector face.

 

[gas112]

Simple fact is why should rad manufacturers add additional production costs and have to change expensive machinery to produce 2 different versions of the same product when there is no demand for it

 

[muggles]

Yes I can see pitfalls in swapping or changing a rad even like for like but the majority of rads are new installations and this is the market I would like to see my idea become the industry standard. In my idea the length of rad tail does become standardized now and in the future so in time this issue ceases to be an issue. Tails seem to be generally screwed in until the flat is flush with the rad connector face.

But if it's patented it wouldn't become the industry standard until the patent runs out and all radiator manufacturers are able to use the idea, plus say 10-15 years for universal adoption. So realistically 20-30 years away. And in the meantime you're expecting the radiator manufacturer who does (theoretically) take on the idea to have two separate production lines, one for radiators aimed at new installations and one for retrofit with the current female thread connections.

Sorry but I think you've got a solution looking for a problem that isn't there, and it's one which creates more problems than it solves

 

[foxhole]

Always use 6 wraps of gas tape , no problem , quick and easy .

 

[momckeown]

Thanks Muggles for your feedback, it's exactly what I was looking for. It's difficult to address all your drawbacks in this forum. The patent does cover a lot of what you raised but that's for another day. Simple question is if such a radiator with fixed and integrated tails was on the market would you use it?

 

[muggles]

If it was available in the same range of sizes as standard radiators, at the same price point, then maybe sometimes. But an increasing amount of my work now is in the retrofit air source heat pump market, where we need higher flow rates due to the reduced temperature difference between flow & return. 15mm compression valves are often unsuitable as you just can't push water through them fast enough without them getting unacceptably noisy, so we end up using ¾" union valves instead. Radiators with fixed 15mm compression tails couldn't be used in that scenario.

 

[momckeown]

Thanks Muggles, I would also point out that 15 mm fixed tails need not be exclusive, a rad with a larger fixed tail to suit your scenario can also be made available

 

[CountryFan]

Just a thought as I’ve never done it. Has anyone used Ls-x or any other jointing compound/paste? Surely it must do what it says on the tin?

 

[denso13]

I would also point out that 15 mm fixed tails need not be exclusive, a rad with a larger fixed tail to suit your scenario can also be made available

And different colours?

 

[muggles]

Just a thought as I’ve never done it. Has anyone used Ls-x or any other jointing compound/paste? Surely it must do what it says on the tin?

I've been using Rapid Blu for about 18 months now. Much faster than PTFE, never ever had it leak, and sets hard enough to repressurise the system in about 10 minutes.

 

[muggles]

Thanks Muggles, I would also point out that 15 mm fixed tails need not be exclusive, a rad with a larger fixed tail to suit your scenario can also be made available

So yet another two production lines required, and more storage space in a bigger warehouse so that all these different options can be available to installers within a day or two, not to mention installers needing to work out when ordering which options they need for which radiators. Now we've gone from 15mm fixed tails at both ends, to 15mm at the left hand end and ¾" union at the right hand end, vice-versa, and ¾" at both ends, to give installers all the options they might want which they can currently achieve just by spending 10 seconds and using a bit of sealant to wind the tail they need into the end of the radiator they need it, be that a standard length 15mm, an extended 15mm, a standard ¾" union, or a union with an extension. 5 different options for radiator manufacturers to produce instead of the one they do at the moment

 

[gary plumb]

my sons just got a new build all rads tboe

 

[momckeown]

Good to know, could still be achievable with a fixed tail , one top and one bottom