speedfit

I'm an amature who has just used speedfit to replace a portion of copper pipe work in my kitchen (the layout is still a bit work in progress).
Whilst you may think this thread's just a slanging match I've found it a useful discussion on the pros and cons of plastic pipe work.

In my case, so far so good, although I did disturb one of the compression fittings on the wrong side of our copper stop cock, which gave a minor leak and a major fright.

one of the biggest advantages of plastic (in my case) turned out to be the lightweight nature (as my pipe runs up the wall) for a first timer it was relatively easy to use and understand and has been running leak free for a few days, I'll have it running and visible for a good month or so before I consider placing my kitchen units infront of it.

I know many pro's will look down on the idea of an amature fitting anything but as my house (1960s) had a wall embeded 32mm coper waste for the kitchen sink (that actually ran up hill at one point) I'm sure it would be entirely possible for me to have hired someone who could do an even worse job for more money in copper, I guess what Im suggesting is that the competency of the fitter is not purely defined by the materials/equipment they use...
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lynda, moderator

this post has been split, to find out why see forum rule 20

stewski said:

...what Im suggesting is that the competency of the fitter is not purely defined by the materials/equipment they use...

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It is when they insist on using copper on those occasions when it's not the best thing to be using.

Softus said:

stewski said:

...what Im suggesting is that the competency of the fitter is not purely defined by the materials/equipment they use...

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It is when they insist on using copper on those occasions when it's not the best thing to be using.

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well to be fair softus, an excellent fitter can probably do a good job in copper in any domestic situation, I mean before plastic fittings there wasnt another choice.

now in the case of plastic-a-phobia I understand the resistance to anything new, especially anything requiring cheaper/fewer tools/skills to participate (I work in computing and I remember other pros complaining about administration GUIs in unix as it dumbs down the process) The truth is a skilled fitter is still valued.

my one concern is how well my speed fit will last, I appreciate its a function of how well I fitted it (damn ) and the operating conditions.

Most of the plumbers I've spoken to seem to prefer hep stuff?

I've kept my use of plastic to a logical minimum a few T/corner pieces 2 appliance taps, compression joins for plastic to copper (re used original compression joints) and I'll be getting some JG flexi monoblock (15mm to male 12mm) with built in isolators (any hint on suppliers welcome) for my new sink if possible.

in these limited circumstances and being as the pipework is wall mounted (with neat plastic brackets), to my untrained eye it seems better than the long lasting copper its replacing.

Its very easy to scare people off plastic and I can see how misuse will prevent it from working correctly (e.g. imperfect/burred copper ended pipe will not push fit as neatly and reliably as plastic) and would accept that as a newer more complex system manufacturing could require higher standards, however taking the higher standards required to the factory and away from the fitter is no bad thing? I mean not everyone who describes themselves as plumbers are master craftsmen who care deeply about your installation.

stewski said:

Softus said:

stewski said:

...what Im suggesting is that the competency of the fitter is not purely defined by the materials/equipment they use...

Click to expand...

It is when they insist on using copper on those occasions when it's not the best thing to be using.

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well to be fair softus, an excellent fitter can probably do a good job in copper in any domestic situation, I mean before plastic fittings there wasnt another choice.

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To be pedantic, an excellent plumber will do an excellent job; a good fitter will do only a good job, and, moreover, won't take into account everything that needs to be taken into account when doing a plumbing job.

Regarding the choice and use of the best materials for the circumstances, I don't favour any material in all circumstances. I stock and carry all options (plastic, copper, pushfit, compression, soldered, crimped) and make the final decision on the job.

Regarding the days when there was only copper, then the best material for the circumstances was always copper.

Most of the plumbers I've spoken to seem to prefer hep stuff?

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In the realm of plastic and pushfit I certainly prefer Hep2o on technical and quality grounds.

...taking the higher standards required to the factory and away from the fitter is no bad thing?

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I completely agree.

I mean not everyone who describes themselves as plumbers are master craftsmen who care deeply about your installation.

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Ain't that the sad truth.

"""Most of the plumbers I've spoken to seem to prefer hep stuff?"""

I doubt that you have been talking to many professional plumbers.

Were any members of the Institute of Plumbing ? I doubt it.

Had any of them even done a proper apprenticeship? Probably not.

Its pretty simple to fit things with push fit plastic, a school kid can do it. Anyone can set themself up as a plumber and pipe everything in plastic. They dont need to learn anything to do that!

Copper pipe is likely to be fine after 100 years. Your plastic will be lucky if the seals have not failed within 20 years.

Tony

Agile said:

"""Most of the plumbers I've spoken to seem to prefer hep stuff?"""

I doubt that you have been talking to many professional plumbers.

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You have a poor view from the top of your high horse Agile - I believe that the poster was referring to a preference for Hep over the other plastic/pushfit products.

Were any members of the Institute of Plumbing ? I doubt it.

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Why do you doubt it? Is it because all of the IoP members have a narrow-minded and out-of-date view of the current products? And do you realise that the entire membership of the IPHE and the IoP is vastly less than the number of high-quality plumbers and engineers who aren't members?

Its pretty simple to fit things with push fit plastic, a school kid can do it. Anyone can set themself up as a plumber and pipe everything in plastic. They dont need to learn anything to do that!

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Which just shows how little you know. Without looking them up, do you know the recommended clipping distances, vertically and horizontally? The thermal expansion ratios? The minimum bend radii?

Copper pipe is likely to be fine after 100 years. Your plastic will be lucky if the seals have not failed within 20 years.

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That is an unfounded and therefore foolish assertion - have you ever seen any 100 year-old copper pipe? If not, then it's because the average life expectancy is more like 15 years, whereas correctly installed Hep2o pipe and fittings are guaranteed for 50 years.

It used to amaze me how many words you're prepared to write from a position of absolutely no knowledge; now I just expect it.

Agile said:

"""Most of the plumbers I've spoken to seem to prefer hep stuff?"""

I doubt that you have been talking to many professional plumbers.

Were any members of the Institute of Plumbing ? I doubt it.

Had any of them even done a proper apprenticeship? Probably not.

Its pretty simple to fit things with push fit plastic, a school kid can do it. Anyone can set themself up as a plumber and pipe everything in plastic. They dont need to learn anything to do that!

Copper pipe is likely to be fine after 100 years. Your plastic will be lucky if the seals have not failed within 20 years.

Tony

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Agile the main guy I was chatting to is a corgi registered gas fitter, I dont know if he is part of any other trade bodies. But he works day to day as a professional.

the others were respectively, the guy who manages our local plumbers merchants and my neighbour who has simply been on a city and guilds. All of them suggested they prefer hep20 over speedfit (I didnt say they'd turned their back on copper Im talking of the 2 competing systems)

talking about a copper installation being fine in 100 years without discussing the quality of the onsite installation/fabrication is simply insane.

anyone can buy pipe cutters a pipe bender and a heat gun.
As for the affiliation of trade bodies, whilst It is an attempt to give assurances to quality of work I'm not a man of blind faith.
Infact as I pointed out the original copper waste in my house was 32mm and up hill, the use of copper doesnt mandate good workmanship!

I'm no plumber but Im not a mug, I trained as an electomechanical design engineer in my youth, I can usually read a building reg and understand it.
Thats not to say Im itching to do anymore than I already have, nor is it to say I wont hire a plumber to take care of the majority of issues within my house.
However in the case of moving my sink and getting my washing machine going paying a pro would have been overkill!

Softus said:

Which just shows how little you know. Without looking them up, do you know the recommended clipping distances, vertically and horizontally? The thermal expansion ratios? The minimum bend radii?

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Softus have you got any links for technical guidance on use of speedfit (or hep) as I've simply followed the basic copper layout (as was) with a few minor alterations and used the guidance as provided on the john guest site so further reading would be of interest...

another thing Im interested in is the use of anti-siphon valves
like hepvo and my no name washing machine drain.
many of the building regs part H for drainage seem to revolve around protecting water traps from pressure issues by bore size run angle and trap depth, surely if a duct uses all valves (no traps) many of the regs details would be a little moot (as the hep site suggests)

http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk/hepv7.htm

the thoughts of someone who knows their stuff would be appreciated

The guy who manages your local Merchant is a sales manager and not a plumber, he would earn far more if he was a plumber! Your neighbour has been on a course but it sounds as if thats all.

The CORGI registered person is one of 95,000 people who have taken assessments to show that he is safe to work on gas, nothing more.

The Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering is not a trade body. It is a Charity to promote and uphold high standards of workmanship. The IPHE have a complaints procedure to give the public an assurance of higher standards expected from their members.

The unfortunate fact is that many involved in plumbing have a very low standard of general education and of plumbing skills. That has caused the public opinion which prevails that plumbers are not very skilled.

Another problem as you will read on these forums is that many plumbers like to be rude and abusive to each other. You dont see doctors or dentists speaking to their colleagues like that!

Many people are scared to call a plumber from the telephone book. Plumbers are not expected to have great skills or training like a solicitor or accountant for example. The profession is totally unregulated! Anyone can take out an advert and offer plumbing services to the public.

Tony

Agile said:

The guy who manages your local Merchant is a sales manager and not a plumber, he would earn far more if he was a plumber! Your neighbour has been on a course but it sounds as if thats all.

The CORGI registered person is one of 95,000 people who have taken assessments to show that he is safe to work on gas, nothing more.

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nothing more, well thats your assumption, he's a very good friend of a very good friend, upfront about the level of his experience and most importantly to me has several years experience in both gas/central heating installs.

Agile said:

The Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering is not a trade body. It is a Charity to promote and uphold high standards of workmanship. The IPHE have a complaints procedure to give the public an assurance of higher standards expected from their members.

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Ideals I admire however I'm assuming (much like the UKWDA similar for web site designers) the truth is these bodies have few teeth when dealing with bad workmen and low budgets for testing member competency?

Agile said:

The unfortunate fact is that many involved in plumbing have a very low standard of general education and of plumbing skills. That has caused the public opinion which prevails that plumbers are not very skilled.

Another problem as you will read on these forums is that many plumbers like to be rude and abusive to each other. You dont see doctors or dentists speaking to their colleagues like that!

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I was discussing the agression of plumbers the other day, the main factor for wishing to tackle the minor plumbing job myself is a general predjudice towards plumbers, my old dad is/was a roofer and I've dealt with many trades and without doubt plumbers on average have been the most arsey, I think it goes hand in hand with as you say a lack of respect and appreciation for the technical end of the job. Personally I see just how technical a domestic install is, much like a domestic electrical install its hardly rocket science but there is a requirement for both a high skill standard coupled with a relatively technical understanding of basic physical principles/legal requirements.

I appreciate the job that good plumbers can do and at some point in the not distant future I will have a ground up job done on my home by a trusted plumber, in the meantime my minor DIY work has helped me understand a good deal more about the requirements and people who work in the trade.

Agile said:

Many people are scared to call a plumber from the telephone book. Plumbers are not expected to have great skills or training like a solicitor or accountant for example. The profession is totally unregulated! Anyone can take out an advert and offer plumbing services to the public.

Tony

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Indeed tony, your observations on the issues of finding a good plumber, either for advice or to employ are something I'd entirely agree with. I'd suggest that total nay sayers of plastic are not filling me with confidence in their knowledge or skills, its simply not possible that useless kit would get appropriate BS standards if it was unusable. I expect working with it has its own issues and will be appropriate only in certain circumstances
Poor use of more accessible tools/materials doesnt say anything about the tools/materials just the users/fitters..

"""Ideals I admire however I'm assuming (much like the UKWDA similar for web site designers) the truth is these bodies have few teeth when dealing with bad workmen and low budgets for testing member competency?"""

Actually the IPHE have a team of Professional Standards Inspectors who are all volunteers and very highly qualified in plumbing. Any complaint is very carefully investigated. Members are very enthusiastic about the Institute and as membership is voluntary and costs money they only join if they are committed to providing the highest standards.

The general education standard of those entering plumbing now is much higher, particularly on the gas side. Most of the trainees I take have degrees in something. Thats not totally representative because I only take people who can speak intelligently ( which rules out the 50% of Cor Blimey people! )

Tony

Agile said:

"""Ideals I admire however I'm assuming (much like the UKWDA similar for web site designers) the truth is these bodies have few teeth when dealing with bad workmen and low budgets for testing member competency?"""

Actually the IPHE have a team of Professional Standards Inspectors who are all volunteers and very highly qualified in plumbing. Any complaint is very carefully investigated. Members are very enthusiastic about the Institute and as membership is voluntary and costs money they only join if they are committed to providing the highest standards.

The general education standard of those entering plumbing now is much higher, particularly on the gas side. Most of the trainees I take have degrees in something. Thats not totally representative because I only take people who can speak intelligently ( which rules out the 50% of Cor Blimey people! )

Tony

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I like the sound of the IPHE but remain sceptical of such schemes, personal referal will always be top of my list.

Tony if you predjudice your understanding of peoples intellegence based on if they say cor blimey and have a cockney or other regional accent you are as I would say a fakkin muppet mate.

having a degree in something becomes less relevant too, as I've gotten older (I'm currently a mature student getting ICT quals that simply didnt exist in my youth) Ive seen rates of university education go from my day 2-5% through the roof 30-50% it is not a major differentiator anymore.

I said that I can only take people who can talk intelligently. Thats very important when explaining something technical to a client in a simple way. The business is largely rated according to the impression created by the person they meet.

Talking intelligently is independent of regional accents. Its what you say and giving the impression that you understand what you are talking about.

Odd that you mentioned roofers. I have met several and bearing in mind that roofing is a pretty hard physical job I have never encountered the same agressive attitude that seems so prevalent amongst plumbers.

By the way I dont call myself a plumber!

Tony

This threads left plastic verse's copper long ago. I,m glad copper pipe cant read cos 15 year life span puts us fitters under a great strain to replace EFIN miles of it. 25 years of fitting copper after a city & guilds old style apprenticeship & all the course's ever since , if i ever get lazy, feel i dont care about how a job u cant see looks,dont worry what the customer thinks about my work & arnt booked up solid for 5 months all the time THEN & only then might i use plastic for any thing other than UFCH.

OK, so you've trained a lot, worked a lot, and fitted a lot of copper pipework.

So, you must have some idea of how long a copper installation lasts, in your area of the country, before it pinholes or wears so thin that it can't be worked on.

10 years? 25? 50? 100? Never?

Can you increase its longevity? Does soft or softened water help? Sacrificial anodes? Better quality brass? Lead-free solder? Different flux? Anything?