DIY Electrical Installation Work

[FingRinal]

Either you will convince them or you won't.

I will convince them. Be assured. Be very assured.

Not if you get me But seriously, how will you convince them? There are lots of posters on here who could benefit from your methods. I don't think DIY.not would benefit though, as all they'd do for every domestical electrical post would be to have an auto message pop up to say 'reasonable provision'.

It's a fact that the IEEE has no elected authority, and BS7671 is not a mandatory standard. The Wiring Regs evolved over the years, having been originally "made up", and continued to be "made up". They aren't debated in Parliament, and aren't legislatively ratified.

Mostly irrelevant.

Hardly irrelevant, since you brought up the matter of standards being "made up".

If you wish to be obdurate and obtuse, then it's a matter of record that everything ever decided or put to paper was at some point 'made up' in the context that you are suggesting.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If you are going to adopt a 'standard' in order to accomodate the above, then you adopt the standard. You don't cherry pick the parts of the standard that you wish to ignore for whatever reason.

I think you can.

To what extent you can then claim compliance with the rest is debatable, as are the words you'd need to use on your notification - maybe instead of "complying with...." it would be more accurate to say "follow the guidance given in...", or "work in accordance with the principles of...".

And whether or not the "cherry picking" does mean that you have made reasonable provision etc etc would be a matter for discussion with LABC.

I reiterate - I'm not saying that you could claim formal compliance with BS7671, but surely you aren't saying that unless I comply with BS7671 in its entirety I'm unable or not allowed to comply with any of it?

For example what if I did everything perfectly but used pre-harmonised cable?

I agree that LABC might be responsible for testing and certifying the work, but it is still the responsibility of the DIYer to set out the Design and to complete the Construction.

How is the Inspector and Tester to inspect and test without a Design to refer to? If you are going to use a 'blanket' design standard i.e. BS7671 and IEE OSG, then all of both of them must be applied.

Clearly there's a sliding scale of how much expertise, ability to test and how much actual "design" work is needed. Rewiring a house needs a lot more of those than adding a light switch in a bathroom, but both are notifiable and both have exactly the same legal requirements for reasonable provision etc.

So what "Design" would an inspector & tester want to see for the addition of a light switch?

Of course, LABC might accept your cherry picking of BS7671. Who knows? But whether they do or not is a different argument to whether they should.

We could spend forever arguing about what they should do, but to what end?

In the real world they clearly do accept that something less than full certified compliance with BS 7671 complies with P1. What I don't know is what words people use on their notification to describe the way in which they plan to comply with it.

It's a better bet to demonstrate compliance with BS7671 as a whole than to cross your fingers and hope your LABC will be weak on the matter.

It's not a question of "weak", it's a question of what they think constitutes "reasonable provision".

Claiming that nothing less than full compliance with BS7671 will do contradicts the guidance, goes beyond what the legislation calls for and means that no DIYer without the ability to carry out testing would be able to do any work whatsoever.

Would you rather people followed BS7671 as much as they were able to, or ignored it completely because they couldn't comply with all of it?

 

[FingRinal]

Would you rather people followed BS7671 as much as they were able to, or ignored it completely because they couldn't comply with all of it?

If people are incapable of complying with it in full for the work involved, they should leave it alone altogether.

If people choose not to follow 'bits' of BS7671, to which standard do you advocate they follow in order to demonstrate 'reasonable provision etc.'?

I have no doubt that an appropriately qualified and experienced person could specify an independent Design without recourse to BS7671. Quite how they woud get it past the LABC is the sticky wicket.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Would you rather people followed BS7671 as much as they were able to, or ignored it completely because they couldn't comply with all of it?

If people are incapable of complying with it in full for the work involved, they should leave it alone altogether.

Really?

You really advocate people doing electrical work and ignoring every single provision of BS 7671 if they can't comply with all of it??

If people choose not to follow 'bits' of BS7671, to which standard do you advocate they follow in order to demonstrate 'reasonable provision etc.'?

Maybe not to any "standard" if you're going to argue that you can't use the word "standard" unless it's complied with in full.

So how about "following the relevant provisions of sections....."?

The point is that the law does NOT require compliance with BS 7671, and it does NOT require that work only be done by people who are unable to comply with it fully, so given the legal requirement for "reasonable provision" what would you suggest people do if you won't let them comply with a subset of BS 7671?

This site is for giving advice to DIYers - if you have expertise in this area then your advice to them on how they can realistically comply with P1 would be of value.

 

[FingRinal]

Would you rather people followed BS7671 as much as they were able to, or ignored it completely because they couldn't comply with all of it?

If people are incapable of complying with it in full for the work involved, they should leave it alone altogether.

Really?

Let me rephrase - If people are incapable of complying with it in full for the work involved, they should leave it (the electrical work) alone altogether.

As for the rest, I gave a full reply earlier.

The reality is that in the absence of a submitted standard, BS7671 will be assumed to be the standard. This being the case, it will be the whole standard and not edited highlights.

The other reality might well be that LABCs couldn't give a monkey's or couldn't tell a monkey from a chimp. I don't advocate submitting an application based on the assumption that either is the case.

 

[mattylad]

How about you two correspond privately, and publish your results on here only when you reach agreement?

WELL SAID THAT MODERATOR!

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[RF Lighting]

I thihk most members are getting pretty fed up with it TBH.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Let me rephrase - If people are incapable of complying with it in full for the work involved, they should leave it (the electrical work) alone altogether.

OK - thanks for the clarification.

Since complying with BS 7671 in full requires testing, you and spark123 seem to be saying that if people cannot test their work they should not be doing any electrical work at all.

Is that what you believe?

And you, spark123?

As for the rest, I gave a full reply earlier.

So what "Design" would an inspector & tester want to see for the addition of a light switch?

The reality is that in the absence of a submitted standard, BS7671 will be assumed to be the standard. This being the case, it will be the whole standard and not edited highlights.

Since you seem unable to get past the word "standard" let me ask you this:

Do you think there is any value in a DIYer following any of the provisions in BS 7671 if he is unable to follow all of them?

The other reality might well be that LABCs couldn't give a monkey's or couldn't tell a monkey from a chimp. I don't advocate submitting an application based on the assumption that either is the case.

Will you help people on this site by saying what you do advocate using as a basis for Building Regulations approval?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I agree, 100%, those two make this forum a very unpleasant and pointless place to be. Get rid of them - permanently - neither of them are interested in discussion, just point scoring and being generally unhelpful. They will eventually kill this forum if not stopped.

On the contrary - I'm interested in this forum being a useful resource for DIYers, which is why I'd like people who have skills and knowledge use them to advise DIYers rather than (as it appears it might be) promote the idea that no DIY work is possible because it's not possible for it to comply entirely with BS 7671.

And I hope you don't mean that an interest in discussion is best served by not asking questions, and not disagreeing with things you believe to be wrong.

 

[Spark123]

And you, spark123?

My point is if you use the British Standard BS7671 to comply with P1 then you need to use the whole document, not pick and chose what you want.
If you use some other method then it is up to you to convince LABC that it fulfills the requirements of P1.

 

[FingRinal]

So what "Design" would an inspector & tester want to see for the addition of a light switch?

If there is a domestic installation which has been designed and constructed to a bespoke design or other recognised standard, there should be relevant docmentation to attest to this. It would then be a matter for the Inspector to apply this criteria to the addition or alteration (if they comply with the competence, knowledge and skill required to do so in accordance with the design or other recognized standard). It would then be a matter for the inspector to determine if the design/standard and addition/alteration complies with the requirements of the building regs.

In the absence of such a bespoke design or other recognized standard, BS7671 would be the assumed standard and the Inspector would then inspect & test the addition/alteration in accordance with BS7671 in order to determine compliance with the building regs.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My point is if you use the British Standard BS7671 to comply with P1 then you need to use the whole document, not pick and chose what you want.
If you use some other method then it is up to you to convince LABC that it fulfills the requirements of P1.

OK.

This is a site for giving practical advice to DIYers.

The requirement to comply with P1 applies to all electrical work in dwellings etc, not just notifiable work.

So if you believe that people must not follow any of the provisions of BS 7671 in order to comply with P1 if they are not able to follow all of them, then what advice would you give to people on how they should comply with it?

I'll ask you the same questions I asked FR.

In fact I'll throw them open to everyone, in an attempt to get this back on track.

Would you rather people followed BS7671 as much as they were able to, or ignored it completely because they couldn't comply with all of it?

Do you think there is any value in a DIYer following any of the provisions in BS 7671 if he is unable to follow all of them?

What would you advise people to do in order to ensure that they comply with P1?

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If there is a domestic installation which has been designed and constructed to a bespoke design or other recognised standard, there should be relevant docmentation to attest to this. It would then be a matter for the Inspector to apply this criteria to the addition or alteration (if they comply with the competence, knowledge and skill required to do so in accordance with the design or other recognized standard). It would then be a matter for the inspector to determine if the design/standard and addition/alteration complies with the requirements of the building regs.

In the absence of such a bespoke design or other recognized standard, BS7671 would be the assumed standard and the Inspector would then inspect & test the addition/alteration in accordance with BS7671 in order to determine compliance with the building regs.

Fair enough.

So if you were doing that, what "Design" would you want to see for the addition of a light switch?