Isn't it time to get this sorted?

[satansbrother]

How does a female rape someone?

I don't know, but I'm willing to be a guinea pig if an 18 year old blonde bird wants to try!

 

[Belboz]

joe - I won't go into graphic details but it can [and has been] done.

Bear in mind that the term 'rape' has been reclassified in Law and now covers a wider definition. It is no longer the narrow definition it once was.

On the original topic, problem is the old Judiciary versus Government issue.

The Government can pass laws to increase the penalties for knife crime but it is already 4 years maximum for offensive weapons and 2 years maximum for bladed/pointed instrument.

They can [and they have done] issue sentencing guidelines to the Judiciary.

Problem is that The Judiciary have, historically, resisted any attempts by Government to interfere [as they see it] with their 'independence'.

The Judiciary argue that THEY must decide on each case according to its merits and they constantly criticise any attempts to impose minimum sentences for offences. This argument goes across the whole spectrum of criminal law.

Hence why we regularly see disparities between sentences handed down from Court to Court across The UK. Any subsequent criticism is met with The Judiciary claiming their 'independent' status and their right to treat each case according to its merits.

I have a certain sympathy with the stance of The Judiciary but I can see the argument from both sides.

Problem is that most areas of criminal law allow a great deal of leeway in sentencing. Very few areas impose a mandatory sentence.

I would resist any temptation to create such a minimum sentence purely on the basis that there can be wide differences between the circumstances of each case. Most posters on here carry some working tools which could be classified as bladed/pointed articles. There are defences as to lawful authority or reasonable excuse but it would not be beyond the realms of possibility for someone on here to find themselves charged with such an offence through a mistake.

I would, therefore, not treat someone who has fallen foul of the current laws by mistake in the same manner as someone who has deliberately taken a kitchen knife out with him/her to 'protect' himself/herself.

A call for mandatory sentences are all well and good but there MUST be safeguards and discretion in sentencing surely?

 

[joe-90]

If I exceed the speed limit there is a mandatory sentence. No-one cares whether there was intent or not.

So why not with knife crime?

Carry a knife in your pocket which has no relevance to your work or where you are - and you are gone.

 

[Space cat]

How does a female rape someone?

Type "Marrietta Higgs" into your favourite search engine!

If you use a knife, you get a min of 5 years. No exceptions.

You're too lenient. I'll see your five and raise you another five.

There are good legal reasons for having a knife on you.

There are indeed. The whole business of what constitutes an offensive weapon is very complicated. A solicitor on a TV programme demonstrated this as follows:

"I've got a knife in my pocket. It's a penknife." He got it out to show the camera. It was a typical penknife with a blade about 2" long. "That's not an offensive weapon. But if I hold it like this and point it at you (he points the open knife at the presenter in a threatening manner) then it is."

I once knew somebody who had a flick knife. (He'd brought it into work to get the spring fixed because it no longer flicked.) We quizzed him on the legality of carrying such a weapon and he replied: "You can carry any kind of knife as long as you can prove that you need it." (Need it for what? ) "I'm a parachutist. I need this for cutting away if my chute fouls up." One of our number had jumped out of planes in the RAF and told him he should be using a proper cutting-away knife instead. (Apparently it has a hooked blade, protected on its outer edge, and is useless as a weapon.)

Was the owner of the flick knife breaking the law? I think he was. Yes, he needed a knife but it didn't have to be that kind of knife. He just liked to show off. Actually, he got his come-uppance later but not from the law. He jumped out of a plane and his cords tangled. So he got out his flick knife and pressed the button - and the spring broke!

Edit: "Hug a hoody." I remember that. I also remember some other politician who went out on the street in front of a TV camera and tried to talk to some hoodies. They told her to eff-off! Why am I not surprized. Let's rephrase the original edict: "Hug a hoody - but have a captive bolt in your pocket."

 

[Belboz]

Actually joe, there isn't.

Excess speed is dealt with on a sliding scale of points/fine/disqualification.

In any event, excess speed [like most Road Traffic offences] is an offence of 'strict liability' and not one [like knife crime] where there are appropriate criminal points to be proved.

I know where you're coming from but imagine the scenario;

Tradesperson wears an anorak to work. Finishes work on Friday [okay I KNOW some work 7 days a week!!] leaving a work knife in the jacket. Saturday comes and tradesperson has to rush out. Raining heavily so grabs the first 'coat' which is the anorak. Subsequently gets stopped and the knife is found. Arrested. States 'forgot' it was there and explains about the jacket. CPS decide no lawful authority or reasonable excuse and tradesperson is charged.

Would you then expect the said tradesperson to face a minimum year in jail in the same way as someone who deliberately arms themselves before going out??

Or would you rather that each case is treated on its merits??

 

[joe-90]

Give the copper some credence for his brain power. If he searches a hoody yob and finds a knife - "book 'im Dano." If he finds a carpet fitter with a Stanley Knife in his toolbox - no crime.

It's all to do with context.

The court can decide if he was legitimate - but the sentence if proven guilty is one that is mandatory.

I shudda bin a loyer.

 

[Space cat]

Or would you rather that each case is treated on its merits??

Each case of carrying a knife must be treated on its merits. That's what judges are for. But if you're convicted of USING a knife in an offensive manner then that's different. My own opinion on knife crime is a bit too radical. I would change the law so that anyone committing a crime with a gun or knife in their hand (with intent to endanger life, not just to steal a washing line) could be shot dead on the spot. Now that's what I call a deterrent.

 

[Space cat]

The court can decide if he was legitimate - but the sentence if proven guilty is one that is mandatory.

Give the man a biscuit!

 

[Belboz]

Give the copper some credence for his brain power. If he searches a hoody yob and finds a knife - "book 'im Dano." If he finds a carpet fitter with a Stanley Knife in his toolbox - no crime.

It's all to do with context.

The court can decide if he was legitimate - but the sentence if proven guilty is one that is mandatory.

I shudda bin a loyer.

Coppers are not permitted any discretion any more and the scenario I used was an actual case. However, this was before all knife possession offences were a straight charge. In the case quoted, the person in question was given a caution.

The context bit I agree with. That's the point I am making. Clearly a tradesperson with a tool inside their toolbox has a reasonable excuse but there are hundreds of scenarios where the reasonable excuse may not apply even to legitimate tradespersons. Very easy to differentiate between a gang member with a kitchen knife and a legitimate tradesperson going to or coming from work with a tool/knife. However, there are many scenarios where it is difficult to tell and, as I said, this can often mean that 'mistakes' end up in front of the Courts.

Of course it is up to The Court to decide on the evidence given in the event of a NG plea but I can tell you that The CPS won't even run a case unless there is a realistic prospect of conviction.

 

[megawatt]

Coppers are not permitted any discretion any more

Don't be silly, of course they are.

A police officer will decide whether to arrest someone based on their judgement and experience and, if they get it wrong, they risk an unlawful arrest lawsuit.

What you mean is, the current new breed of police officers don't use their common sense anymore and, in many cases, this I would agree with

MW

 

[Belboz]

MW

Locally, street officers are subject to performance indicators. This means they have to reach a minimum points tally each month. There are points awarded based on arrests and 'detections'. Basically, 1 point for an arrest and 2 for a detection.

Now this means that arrests which would have previously been merely subject to a verbal warning now end up as arrests. There are numerous examples of areas where arrests could LAWFULLY be made but, in the past, were not as discretion was used.

Long and short of it is that officers can arrest on suspicion. Easier for them to arrest and get the 'point' then interview and kick out after considering the evidence [or lack of it]

The new arrest powers which came into force a couple of years back enlarged the arrest powers and that means, basically, that an arrest can be justified for virtually anything. Whether it ends up as a charge is a different matter.

 

[megawatt]

I'm not denying that what you say is true Belboz but I can tell you that all the police officers I know would use their judgement when it comes to arresting someone for carrying a knife ... Maybe its because I know sensible people or maybe its because I don't live in an inner city where knife crime is more prevalent

MW

 

[joe-90]

That's your problem mate, you live in bucolic Devon and so have little knowledge of the real world in the big cities.

 

[Zampa]

I'm not denying that what you say is true Belboz but I can tell you that all the police officers I know would use their judgement when it comes to arresting someone for carrying a knife ... Maybe its because I know sensible people or maybe its because I don't live in an inner city where knife crime is more prevalent

MW

Maybe they could really use their judgement and stab the knife carriers first..

No costly trails, no spaces taken up in prison, one less pice of scum on the street..problem solved!

Oh hang on, St BAS might read this and think I mean it..

5 year minimum for possession... 10 if they use it.

The government recently said that some responsibility should rest with the parents...to tell their kids they love them etc..talk about pass the buck!

Most of these ferel kids dont even know their real parents.

The sanitised reporting doesnt help either...rarely does the media mention the colour or race of the 'gang of youths' seen running from the incident.

Well..unless they are white and its a black or asian victim.

My old local paper used to have headlines like ' police a are seeking a gang of youths, black tracksuits with red green and gold stripes, dreadlocks, and athletic builds'

If theres a black on black shooting all you here is 'officers from operation trident are investigating'

When not speak the truth in plain english..whats the point in trying to cover things up?

People should be made aware of whos 'at it'...

Im sick of hearing in the paper and on the news 'the victim
was said to be a model college student, good sports man hes whole life in front of him..blah de bleeeeedin blah...

The fact that he was walking around with a pocket full of crack and a 10 inch blade and belonged to the 'top boyz mash it up' gang was neither here nor there then

Maybe when the black community finally get sick to the bone of seeing their own slain by their own they will act or when the decent law abiding ones get sick of all being stereotyped as 'gangstas'

I feel no sympathy for the victims of gang warfare...they dont have to join a gang, they dont have to sell drugs and steal to make a living and they certainly dont have to carry knives..

You live by the sword.....................

Of course a lot of white kids are sadly killed too...im using blacks becasue they seem to have the biggest problem with it.

When arnt there street gangs of indians, pakistanis, japanese, chinese, turks, greeks etc?

This lazy government have got to do something now..before another parent/s gets the knock on the door from the police with their hats removed.

Whatever the colour.

Excess speed is dealt with on a sliding scale of points/fine/disqualification.

Nonsense

Its dependent on who you are and who the judge is...

My nephew got done a few years ago 62 in a 50....open croad, 3 month band, points and a big fine..young fella smart dresser and he has a Porsche.

Same day....old fella 50+ in a 30 ( which is worse IMO) 200 quid fine..job done.

 

[megawatt]

That's your problem mate, you live in bucolic Devon and so have little knowledge of the real world in the big cities.

I've news for you city dweller ... Devon IS part of the real World

And, whilst I now live in a beautiful and (relatively) peaceful place, it hasn't always been so and I have lived in some of the more colourful places both in this country and abroad ... And I have relatives in some pretty rough parts of the UK ... Don't see much of them though thankfully

MW