12kw water heater - cost for electric installation ?

[3point14]

Sounds easy doesn't it. Get a couple of quotes and hire someone to do the job. The trouble is that getting a professional interested isn't easy.

One guy (on the Which? recommended list) just spouted a figure over the phone. Another couple just never showed up. One guy wanted loony money (nigh on £700).

Here's the job:

To run around 15m of cable (10mm or would 16mmbe better ?) from the heater to the consumer unit, put in a mcb (50A or 63A ?), pinning the cabling to the wall in the cellar.

I am not looking to get this done for £20 but I can easily google the cost of the parts and I reckon this is a 1 or 2 hour job at the most (I actually think you could do it in 30 mins if you were pushed) so why don't people want the work ?

I'm guessing materials and £100 for labour would be a decent hour's work don't you think ? Easy money too.

Any ideas on what it should cost and how to get a decent sparky interested enough to come and do it ?

 

[bernardgreen]

If you gave the sparks the same "job description" as you have posted here then I am not surprised there is no interest. He or she will tell you what is needed to safely connect your water heater. You can tell them what you want connected but not how to do it and how much time it will take them.

Are you sure your CU can handle a 12 Kwatt load on one circuit ?

Maybe the £ 700 was a realistic quote if you need a new CU.

And even if you think you can do it as DIY job please don't. An overloaded CU that catches fire makes a mess that will cost a lot more than £ 700 to repair.

 

[Adam_151]

You have unreasonable expectations of the job!, half an hour would be gone in the time it takes to go to the wholesaler, collect materials, find and arrive at your location and unpack his tools!, actually by the time you have shown him to where the job is and hes got the cover off the board theres about an hour gone!

Like bernard, I'd be wary of putting a load that is likely to draw 12kw for extended periods of time on a domstic consumer unit, separate 60A switchfuse (plus RCD if manufacturer requires it) would be how I'd look at at doing it.

Also consider you might have a 60A service fuse and DNO might have to be brought in to upgrade, your bonding might not be upto scratch, you haven't allowed for him to test his work, etc

 

[3point14]

If you gave the sparks the same "job description" as you have posted here then I am not surprised there is no interest. He or she will tell you what is needed to safely connect your water heater. You can tell them what you want connected but not how to do it and how much time it will take them.

Are you sure your CU can handle a 12 Kwatt load on one circuit ?

Maybe the £ 700 was a realistic quote if you need a new CU.

And even if you think you can do it as DIY job please don't. An overloaded CU that catches fire makes a mess that will cost a lot more than £ 700 to repair.

I haven't suggested anything but I have had these installed overseas and in order to make sure they were putting the right stuff in, I did a bit of homework.

 

[3point14]

You have unreasonable expectations of the job!, half an hour would be gone in the time it takes to go to the wholesaler, collect materials, find and arrive at your location and unpack his tools!, actually by the time you have shown him to where the job is and hes got the cover off the board theres about an hour gone!

Like bernard, I'd be wary of putting a load that is likely to draw 12kw for extended periods of time on a domstic consumer unit, separate 60A switchfuse (plus RCD if manufacturer requires it) would be how I'd look at at doing it.

Also consider you might have a 60A service fuse and DNO might have to be brought in to upgrade, your bonding might not be upto scratch, you haven't allowed for him to test his work, etc

I do take your point but when I go to work, I get paid after I turn up with the right kit. I don't get paid to go fetch the tools for the job. I also don't expect to pay for someone's travelling time. That said, I realise I am being unrealistic. Thanks.

The unit is a multipoint water heater. It would likely never draw the full 12kw but that would depend upon the inward water temperature and the flow rate. There is a 9.6kw alternative but why go part way ?

I guess the timing thing was thinking that if a sparky was set out to take £1500 a week, then either that is 15 hours on site at £100 an hour or 30 hours including off site work at £50 an hour.

 

[EFLImpudence]

If you're not going to pay travelling time then I must decline the job - thank you. Attitude also had something to do with it.

 

[Adam_151]

Travelling to and obtaining materials are part of the job though, if you don't want to pay for his time in doing so, then who do you think should foot the bill for this (and insurance, servicing, fuel, etc for the van)

Though granted you're quite wide of the mark on what the hourly rate normally is for a sparks... you're confusing us with main dealer car garages

 

[3point14]

Travelling to and obtaining materials are part of the job though, if you don't want to pay for his time in doing so, then who do you think should foot the bill for this (and insurance, servicing, fuel, etc for the van)

Though granted you're quite wide of the mark on what the hourly rate normally is for a sparks... you're confusing us with main dealer car garages

I admit I don't know what figures it should be. Perhaps stupidly I expected someone to give me a quote with a breakdown for materials and then a labour charge and a total at the bottom. I will also admit I don't know why doing that is so difficult and in failing to do so, I am sceptical as to just how the numbers stack up. It isn't rocket science is it ?

Your comments regarding going to get materials seems fair and I hadn't really thought about it in that context. Good to learn something. Overseas you have to basically do the job yourself and tell them what to do or they'll rob you, change your materials for cheaper ones, bodge the job and leave you in the lurch !

 

[3point14]

If you're not going to pay travelling time then I must decline the job - thank you. Attitude also had something to do with it.

I'm being convinced that some time for obtaining materials is in order but I don't understand why we can't get an itemised quote just to make sure that the guy isn't trying to charge £50 for a £5 item or £20 a metre for £3 a metre cable.

Getting paid to go get materials is one thing. Marking them up massively is another.

I can justify the quotes I put in for my work and I can stand by the amount I charge per hour. Am I being unrealistic in expecting tradesmen to do the same ?

 

[ebee]

You should be able to get what you call a quote.
The word "quote" has no actual meaning in law so it is the same as an estimate.
For some commercial jobs the a "fixed price" is used and that is what a lot of people mean by a "quote".
Whether a fixed price or estimate it might be broken down or it might not.
Personally I just give prices on private jobs such as yours ie a complete job description which should avoid any doubt as to what is or what is not included and then a final price fully inclusive to have the job working from start to finish. This also of course includes testing, notifying etc etc.

I've found that a breakdown of costs with private individuals is often just an attempt to get a bill of materials in order for them to do it themselves or get someone else to do it.

I work from my premises and charge from when I start off from then until I get back to them, if I have to go to the suppliers to get some out of the ordinary supplies then that time is chargeable. On the other hand I think it reasonable to carry some "run of the mill stock" so with everyday items I stop the clock if I need to go and get them because, theoretically, I periodically stock up regularly to keep a reasonable level and that time becomes absorbed in to my general overheads.

If I need to travel 10 miles from my home to my business premises or 10 feet (or 10 metres) then that is irrelevant .

If I was working for an employer I would expect to pay my own way to get to his factory but if he wanted me then to travel to another factory a few miles away then I would expect to be paid whilst travelling to that other premises.

Your statement of "pinning cable to wall in cellar" does not inspire me with confidence! As to the need for a 12KW heater and other possible problems mentioned by others, I wonder if you think it's just a simple matter of twisting two bits of wire together and it will work.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[EFLImpudence]

Try finding a solicitor, or even a Q.C., who knows about electrics to do it.

 

[jozeffo]

The electrician who does my extensions and build projects would charge £200 for a day to travel and do that. He would also give details of exactly what you needed to buy and where would be easiest to get it from. If he had it on his van already, then he would charge it at cost. I bet we are at the other end of surrey though.

I sense that what you are asking for is transparent pricing and frankly that is what I expect and what I think consumers deserve.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm being convinced that some time for obtaining materials is in order but I don't understand why we can't get an itemised quote just to make sure that the guy isn't trying to charge £50 for a £5 item or £20 a metre for £3 a metre cable.

If you go to a restaurant, do you demand that they give you a list of all the ingredients in each dish, how much they paid for them, how much time it takes to prepare each dish, and thereby justify the price they are charging?

And when they refuse, do you leave?

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

If you're not going to pay travelling time then I must decline the job - thank you. Attitude also had something to do with it.

I'm being convinced that some time for obtaining materials is in order but I don't understand why we can't get an itemised quote just to make sure that the guy isn't trying to charge £50 for a £5 item or £20 a metre for £3 a metre cable.

Getting paid to go get materials is one thing. Marking them up massively is another.

Is it really? The sparky is at liberty to make up his price however s/he sees fit, its a business choice s/he will make and you have a choice of accepting that or finding a different tradesman. This happens in all sorts of trades.
Do you know how much Tesco/Asda/Morrisons etc actually pay for a pint of milk/loaf of bread, or do you just know how much they charge you for that pint/loaf?

I can justify the quotes I put in for my work and I can stand by the amount I charge per hour.

Really? What do you do, how much do you charge and how do you justify that amount?

Am I being unrealistic in expecting tradesmen to do the same ?

Yep. Why should s/he spent hours of their time compiling a detailed list for you to scrutinise/haggle over or simply pass to the next sparky with a 'beat that' comment. (First spark does all the free-of-charge leg work, second sparky looks at quote, shaves a few quid off it, and tah-dah, he gets the jobs gifted to him!!) I know thats happened to me before, you give an overall price, customer wants more info, i waste some of my saturday morning giving him a price list that is starting to look like a set of instructions. He says thanks, will be in touch. Next thing i hear is the potential customer is now fully aware of how much to pay his brother to do the job, FFS!