AAAAARGH

[westie101]

I am getting sick and fed up of employees of a certain Gas company doing PIRs and trying to fail installations for issues that do not come under the wiring regs, rather they are part of our system!

Of course they don't actually ring us but get the customer to do so with a chinese whisper half story.
I have serious doubts as to their training and qualifications

(and don't get me started about their voltage testing and understanding of electricity)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Just report every instance of incompetence to Trading Standards.

And if you doubt their competence to work safely, start sending in RIDDORs.

 

[westie101]

one of these days I'll track one of them & their bosses down. An interesting discussion will then follow!

 

[Paul_C]

I am getting sick and fed up of employees of a certain Gas company doing PIRs and trying to fail installations for issues that do not come under the wiring regs, rather they are part of our system!

Would you care to entertain us with some examples?

 

[westie101]

Threatening to put a fail as our earth wire was undersize. Sorry but from the cable/cut-out to the Met is not part of the installation. When I told the guy (the one time one had rung) he told me that they had never been told

The same thing with meter tails.

Today's beut. was a confused message from a customer who did not understand the problem. We ended up dispatching the wrong team to that!

For voltage measurement they do not use a multi-meter but a plug in device with lights, so do not know the exact voltage.
If the red light goes on to suggest high volts the customer is then told how dangerous it is and immediate action is needed.
When we measure and record it, it is often only 1 or 2 volts high!

 

[Paul_C]

Doing a PIR and don't even use a simple voltmeter?!

I'm not sure I dare ask what they use for testing loop impedances etc.

 

[JohnW2]

Threatening to put a fail as our earth wire was undersize. Sorry but from the cable/cut-out to the Met is not part of the installation. When I told the guy (the one time one had rung) he told me that they had never been told The same thing with meter tails.

This surely indicates a ludicrous situation which is crying out for a harmonisation of the regulations. It's clearly quite ridiculous that there are different requirements for the sizing of the earthing conductor on either side of the MET, or for meter tails being regarded as acceptable by one set of regulations but inadequate ('dangerous') by another set.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

There have been a number of different specs of earthing wire sizes over the years, if it met the spec at the time and no retrospective action is required (don't forget that we are governed by legislation that is vague and very non specific as to how we comply, any CoPs we as a company or the industry write)
e.g. At present we require a minimum 10mm earth wire for a 25mm PME service, yet on here we are told that 16mm is the minimum!
Some old (pre-war) TN-S supplies have something like a 2.5mm from the lead sheath to the MET, but we are not aware of any issues actually caused by this!

If we do work on a service we bring it up to modern standards but the logistics of doing every supply every time the wiring regs change is an impossibility

 

[JohnW2]

There have been a number of different specs of earthing wire sizes over the years, if it met the spec at the time and no retrospective action is required ....

I don't disagree with that (within reason), and I'm not necesarily suggesting that the DNO's wiring or regulations/CoPs need to be changed - merely that there should be harmonisation between the various sets of regulations (i.e. it could be that the other regs change) ....

.... both the IET and DNOs know that if one has two conductors joined together, with no branches, then the same current will flow through both conductors - and the thermal effects of current on a cable of given CSA are the same whether the cable is supplied by the DNO or someone else. Hence, if whatever cable the DNO runs from their neutral (or sheath) to the MET is deemed by DNO experts to be safe, then the experts who write BS7671 should not require a cable of greater CSA between the MET and the installation. As you've said, changes in regulations (yours or BS7671) are not usually retroactive, so there is no obligation to bring old installations up to current standards - and it seems to makes little sense to require upgrading of one part of a current path if another part of the same current path remains, under old (or different) regulations, of an 'inferior' standard.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

Utopia would be good!

So lets look at a possible case: -
House A has a service that was installed in the 1920's with a TN-S supply.
The earth is sweated to the lead sheath and is the equivalent of 2.5mm.
The incoming cable is a 2c.0225 and terminates in a fused neutral cutout.

The house is being rewired and a new CU fitted.

Option 1
The electrician fails to contact the DNO, breaks the meter and cutout seals and does his own connection, everything else stays the same.
It is not spotted when the meter is read as the reader does not have the specific knowledge to report it.

Option 2
The DNO is involved attends and spots and reports the cutout and earth, these are changed the same day.

We have no way of inspecting every service to bring it up to a matching standard, so if we are not told we can't do anything about it.

As far as I know the DNO's are represented at the IET

 

[JohnW2]

Utopia would be good! So lets look at a possible case: - House A has a service that was installed in the 1920's with a TN-S supply. The earth is sweated to the lead sheath and is the equivalent of 2.5mm. The incoming cable is a 2c.0225 and terminates in a fused neutral cutout. The house is being rewired and a new CU fitted.
Option 1 : The electrician fails to contact the DNO, breaks the meter and cutout seals and does his own connection, everything else stays the same. It is not spotted when the meter is read as the reader does not have the specific knowledge to report it.
Option 2 : The DNO is involved attends and spots and reports the cutout and earth, these are changed the same day.

I'm struggling a bit to see what any of this has got to do with the point I raised about harmonisation of regs.

I imagine that even 'you' (DNO) would probably not regard the 2.5mm² earth as satisfactory - so, if it were brought to your attention, you would presumably upgrade it. The situation I was talking about (and I thought you were also discussing) was one in which the DNO was happy with the sizing of the earthing conductor on its side of the MET, but BS7671 theoretically required a larger size on the other side of the MET - which, in engineering terms, is simply daft; common sense suggests that the organisation(s) on one or other side of the MET ought to change their requirements (in their current regs) to match that of the other organisation(s) (or both change and 'meet in the middle'!).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

Sorry I went at a tangent!

Yes if we are told we will fit a correct size earth, but, possibly, the point I was trying to make, apart from the earlier comment we rarely do get told.
Generally we will change the cutout at the same time and will do the work as a planned job.

Yes the differing requirements are a bit foolish!

 

[JohnW2]

Sorry I went at a tangent!

Given the history of my posts, I'm hardly in a position to criticise that

Yes the differing requirements are a bit foolish!

Yes, that was my point. Both sets of regs are presumably written by, or in consultation with, engineering experts who are working with the same Laws of Physics, so one would have expected they would/could/should be able to reach agreement on cable CSA requirements. We are agreed that it is impractical to expect that cables on either side of the MET will be automatically upgraded every time regs change - but I would contend that the requirements of the current regs ought at least be the same in both sets of regs ... but perhaps I'm just naive!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[sparkticus]

I have serious doubts as to their training and qualifications

Most of them have zero electrical science training, usually sent on just a short course. They have some "real electricians" I believe, but few and far between.
My son was asked to do a PIR on a private property which was rented out and still had an existing (about to expire) electrical maintenance contract with them. My son found that the extension lighting had a CPC but no continuity back to the MET. Had a class one light fitting. We reported this to the owner/landlord and they contacted "the gas company" because they had done their version of a PIR about two years before. First they refused to come out saying they did not respond to anything detected by a third party!! I then called them and told them that they had a class one lighting fitting and no earth, were they sure about not responding. They sent out a 5 day wonder who determined that there was an earth. My son was outraged so I had a look. I confirmed there was no earth continuity both by measurement and then locating a junction box under the boards of the room above (requested by the owner who was with us by this time)
I found that the CPC was not connected and the three twin+earth's entering the box were very strained as though someone had pulled hard on one of the cables. We took pictures and recorded the readings and provided an "unsatisfactory" PIR, at the request of the owner (in fact we repaired the problem because we obviously could not leave it in such a way) She then sent all of the evidence to the "gas company" after some time they refunded the cost of the contract and offered to fix the problem. She just took the money.

 

[sparkticus]

[quote="westie101";p="2085763]
We have no way of inspecting every service to bring it up to a matching standard, so if we are not told we can't do anything about it.
[/quote]


Westie, what I do not understand (and this is not levelled at you but at the system) the DNOs (and whoever has managed them through the years) have had at least 90 years to collect records. Almost every time I call the DNO (western power) they are unable to provide me with the fuse rating or tell me if the property had been converted to TN-C-S. Almost without fail they say they can schedule a visit to pull the fuse and to check to see if the service has been converted to TN-C-S. All they can tell me is that the property is "available for PME" On top of that, they charge to come out to tell me what the fuse rating is!!! (obviously I have never taken them up on their kind offer)

Now, I see from your comment that they don't even know what size the main (safety) earthing conductor is on a service they provide. I just do not get it??

Is there any parallel to this by any other service provider?