round here the travelling folk charge for removal of waste, then throw it on a county playing field and leave it for someone else to clear up.
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Thatcher Dead
- Thread starter securespark
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They were already overpaid, subsidised, and on a 3 day week.
Please tell me what this compromise was, and who should have been making it?
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Yeah, that really gets my goat. Trouble is, round here, everyone's doing it.
It's a fallacy that unions were for the people. I grew up on a very poor council estate. Dad worked on the docks and Mum was a cleaner. Union bosses were universally hated because everything they did was to create their own little empires and line their own pockets. They didn't go in the pubs because they knew they weren't welcome. They stopped people working and earning but carried on drawing their fat salaries. They were the first people on the estate to paint their front doors a different colour - and that was at a time when it was virtually unheard of. They were more or less the only car owners. If you were a minor or train driver or steel worker you were ok. You earned well above the average and you were all right Jack. But every single other working class person (by a long way the majority) trying to earn a crust suffered and paid for it. The unions didn't give a toss about those people. Pure self serving greed was the downfall of the unions. Simple as that.
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Fair points. But couldnt Thatcher of worked to reform the unions as opposed to destroying them(and British industry along with it)?
History and not this false revisionist history being trotted out by the mainstream media, tories and foreign leaders but real history would be kinder to her if she was a real competitive reformer rather then just a strongman.
Bringing the Germans up again Thatcher is not on the same level as Kohl, Schroeder and Merkel who made massive strides at home and abroad by compromising and being concialatory.
And how did thatcher destroy the unions?
What was this "compromise" she should have made?
Did she make them illegal, no.
There were jobs where you HAD to join the union, that was made illegal, do you disagree with that (I think it was wrong to force someone to join a union).
State subsidies for industries were pulled, how does that stop people forming unions, of course unions for industries that no longer existed would no longer exist.
The Tories stopped solidarity strikes (ambulance people striking on behalf of steel workers), do you think this is wrong then?
How exactly did they "destroy" the unions, rather than curb un-justified powers (or do you disagree with that).
And what compromise should she have made, they already had large subsidies, inflated wages that made them uncompetitive.
When people talk of compromise I think what they mean is "taxpayers should have continued to throw money at these industries", which would have given them even LESS incentive to modernise and become competitive.
What was this "compromise" she should have made?
Did she make them illegal, no.
There were jobs where you HAD to join the union, that was made illegal, do you disagree with that (I think it was wrong to force someone to join a union).
State subsidies for industries were pulled, how does that stop people forming unions, of course unions for industries that no longer existed would no longer exist.
The Tories stopped solidarity strikes (ambulance people striking on behalf of steel workers), do you think this is wrong then?
How exactly did they "destroy" the unions, rather than curb un-justified powers (or do you disagree with that).
And what compromise should she have made, they already had large subsidies, inflated wages that made them uncompetitive.
When people talk of compromise I think what they mean is "taxpayers should have continued to throw money at these industries", which would have given them even LESS incentive to modernise and become competitive.
Look, I'm not defending Thatcher as such, but Wilson, Heath, Wilson, Callaghan had been trying to work with the unions for years. They weren't interested. The Country was on its knees in the mid 70s and the unions were hell bent on finishing it off while it was down. New practices, new working policies, new technology, co-operation. These things were strangled by the unions because they were blinded by political prejudice and they knew it diluted their personal power and fortunes. There simply was no negotiating with them. So what exactly is the suggestion now. Did Blair do anything to reverse any 80s Tory policies? No! Did Brown? No! Will Milliband? No! I heard a labour minister quoted on the radio this morning, (not sure who it was) he said; An awful lot of people voted for Maggie Thatcher in the 70s and 80s but it was hard to find one that admitted it.
I didn't mean to misrepresent what you said, in fact I was agreeing with you. All I'm saying is that it takes two to tango. Everyone blames Maggie for failing to compromise, whereas the unions were just as unwilling to give as well as take.
Moving on, I don't usually take much notice of AS (because he often tends to be a little silly), but I do agree strongly with his last post (11.52 today). It was greedy union leaders who damaged this country rather than Maggie.
Industrial relations were notoriously bad in Britain. A combination of untrained and incompetent management; lack of investment; cultural contempt for trade, industry and engineering; an education system where the brightest and best were directed into academia and the professions; and insecurity of employment, combined with a legacy of dislike and distrust.
Did I hear someone suggest that the unions were to blame for all that?
Did I hear someone suggest that the unions were to blame for all that?
M
mdf290
When you take off the ridiculously tinted rose tinted specs you will find out that Arthur Scargill was bankrolled by Marxsist Russia who saw the trade unions as a great way to ruin our country. Of course the dewy eyed wanabee socialists in this country only saw Russia as a big cuddly bear and failed totally to see the true reason for the support.
'Some' mines were to be closed as the coal industry had been heavily subsidised for years. This was a problem that had to be addressed and measures were put in place to close some mines and mechanise and make more productive and cost effective others. Of course this would have meant job losses but only in the way these things happen when any business moves with the times.
However Arthur Scargill decided that NO mines were to be closed and therefore he called an all out strike. This strike was actually against the unions own rules as no ballot was given to the members.
The unions acted appallingly forcing miners to strike even when they wanted to work.
Maggie remembering what happened with the 1974 strike and the country being brought to its knees without power had given productivity bonuses the effect of which was that there was a sufficient stockpile of coal to ride out a strike.
80% of the population supported Maggies actions which were purely to stand up against the miners and not give in to their demands.
This is where the Unions botched the whole thing up big style. Mines were unmanned and regular safety work was not carried out. This made many pits close purely on safety grounds not productivity or profit , it was a massive own goal. In the light of our troubles we had offers that we could not turn down in the form of cheaper coal from abroad. The longer the strike went on the more irrelevant our pits became. If the unions had not started the strike in the first place our mining industry allthough at a smaller scale would have continued on for a much longer time and with much fewer job losses.
In the end the unions got increasingly desperate as miners were forced to brave the picket lines to feed their families after months without pay. to stop this return to work pickets became increasingly violent leading to the murder of a taxi driver taking a miner to work.
The public had no sympathy for the miners with 80% backing Maggie to fight the obnoxious self centered union bosses.
Of course its much easier for miners or people sympathising with miners to say that Maggie shut down the mines and ruined communities but the truth is the Unions had an equal hand if not a bigger hand in their demise but for anyone to admit that would mean they would have to admit being wrong and that they had helped in their own dwownfall but that wont happen will it?
'Some' mines were to be closed as the coal industry had been heavily subsidised for years. This was a problem that had to be addressed and measures were put in place to close some mines and mechanise and make more productive and cost effective others. Of course this would have meant job losses but only in the way these things happen when any business moves with the times.
However Arthur Scargill decided that NO mines were to be closed and therefore he called an all out strike. This strike was actually against the unions own rules as no ballot was given to the members.
The unions acted appallingly forcing miners to strike even when they wanted to work.
Maggie remembering what happened with the 1974 strike and the country being brought to its knees without power had given productivity bonuses the effect of which was that there was a sufficient stockpile of coal to ride out a strike.
80% of the population supported Maggies actions which were purely to stand up against the miners and not give in to their demands.
This is where the Unions botched the whole thing up big style. Mines were unmanned and regular safety work was not carried out. This made many pits close purely on safety grounds not productivity or profit , it was a massive own goal. In the light of our troubles we had offers that we could not turn down in the form of cheaper coal from abroad. The longer the strike went on the more irrelevant our pits became. If the unions had not started the strike in the first place our mining industry allthough at a smaller scale would have continued on for a much longer time and with much fewer job losses.
In the end the unions got increasingly desperate as miners were forced to brave the picket lines to feed their families after months without pay. to stop this return to work pickets became increasingly violent leading to the murder of a taxi driver taking a miner to work.
The public had no sympathy for the miners with 80% backing Maggie to fight the obnoxious self centered union bosses.
Of course its much easier for miners or people sympathising with miners to say that Maggie shut down the mines and ruined communities but the truth is the Unions had an equal hand if not a bigger hand in their demise but for anyone to admit that would mean they would have to admit being wrong and that they had helped in their own dwownfall but that wont happen will it?
Excellent. Very clearly explained.
Now I await with interest one of the 'Maggie destroyed the mining industry' brigade to try to deny any of these facts.
The Ridley plan.
They also divided the miners by giving the nottinghamshire pits modern equipment and assurances about their future (they still closed them all).
Thatcher and her cronies set out to destroy the miners from the start they planned for it well in advance and they succeeded. That doesn't make her a heroine to me, just a ruthless, callous destroyer of countless communities.
They also divided the miners by giving the nottinghamshire pits modern equipment and assurances about their future (they still closed them all).
Thatcher and her cronies set out to destroy the miners from the start they planned for it well in advance and they succeeded. That doesn't make her a heroine to me, just a ruthless, callous destroyer of countless communities.
J
joinerjohn
Actually, the mining industry had been in decline since the 1960's Pit closures were commonplace in the 60's and 70's (lefties either don't realise this, or choose to ignore it )
Sources please
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