Adding socket to Consumer Unit - notifiable?

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"some would say that constitutes creation of a 'new circuit'."

But the reasonable man would disagree.

I have a circuit which feeds my cooker. I make an alteration to it. It is the old circuit, altered. It is not a new circuit.

The reasonable man would say that if you have a sock, and darn it, or embroider it, or tie ribbons to it, it is not a new sock.
 
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Trigger And that's what I've done. Maintained it for 20 years. This old broom's had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time.
Sid How the hell can it be the same bloody broom then?
Trigger There's the picture. What more proof do you need?
 
Does not BS EN 61439-3 define the term?
You have seen my recent exchanges with stillp. The definitions from 61439-3 he has provided would cover things that you and I would probably not regard as CUs, but it would apparently require me to make a trip to my 'local' (not really!) library, and the expenditure of appreciable time, to find out whether the Standard says anything more specific.
And do you intend to claim that a reasonable person, doing electrical work, would not know if what he had installed was a CU?
Isn't this the problem? You, I or any "reasonable person doing electrical work" would know, at least in clear-cut cases (but see below) whether we considered that what we had installed was a "CU" - but whether BS7671 or the Building Regs would take the same view is something that we just don't know.

There are certainly 'grey areas' and/or anomalies. I imagine that you and I would probably agree that a DIN enclosure which contained a DP switch (or RCD) and a B6 or B10 MCB (or even RCBO) was "a CU" - but I also suspect that we (certainly I) would not regard an FCU, even an RCD FCU, as being "a CU", would we? Nor would we probably regard a switch-fuse as "a CU". So what (if anything) are the 'non-combustibility' and notification requirements in relation to such items?

Kind Regards, John
 
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"some would say that constitutes creation of a 'new circuit'." .... But the reasonable man would disagree.
That's what I said - but are you saying that the electricians who take the other view are "unreasonable"? There are at least some, even in this forum, who believe that 'changing the characteristics of a circuit' by changing the OPD to one of a different In constitutes creation of a new circuit.

... and is the "reasonable man" being unreasonable by believing that replacing every component of a circuit renders it a 'new circuit'? ....
The reasonable man would say that if you have a sock, and darn it, or embroider it, or tie ribbons to it, it is not a new sock.
Indeed. But if you 'replaced' all the wool (or whatever), he might well regard it as a 'new sock', just as if you replaced the cable, accessories and OPD of a final circuit.

It's not straightforward, even for the "reasonable man"!

Kind Regards, John
 
Well I've only been in the house 6 months, but so far it's tripped a grand total of 0 times...
There you go!

PBC: I suggest you ask BAS whether he has ever performed any notifiable electrical work in his own home/garden without notifying.
A good question. I suspect a straight answer will not be forthcoming.

From BS EN 61439-3:2012:

3.1.101
distribution board intended to be operated by ordinary persons
DBO

ASSEMBLY used to distribute electrical energy in domestic (household) applications and other
places where operation is intended by ordinary persons
That vague description could include a multi-way trailing extension lead!
 
That vague description could include a multi-way trailing extension lead!
Indeed. We can but hope that, as stillp seemed to imply, there may be greater detail/clarity elsewhere in the Standard - for anyone with the time and inclination to get hold of a copy and study it!

Kind Regards, John
 
That vague description could include a multi-way trailing extension lead!
No it couldn't, because an extension lead is not an ASSEMBLY as defined in IEC 61439 series.

This is why I often regret trying to clarify matters by posting extracts from standards - people take the words out of context.
 
It just seems to me that if BS7671 is to contain regulations which apply to "Consumer Units", and if the Building Regulations are to contain (notification) requirements which apply to "Consumer Units", then it really should be incumbent on the authors of both of those documents to provide very clear and easy-to-understand definitions of what they mean by "Consumer Unit" in relation to their requirements - just as, for example, the authors of BS7671 should also provide a clear definition of "non-combustible" and the authors of the Building Regulations should also provide a clear definition of "a new circuit".
For comparison, look at how for the purposes of defining whether or not some job is notifiable, the Building Regulations refer to BS7671 for the definition of a special location (do they still say BS7671:2001, or has that now been updated to 2008?). If the Building Regulations had used the term without such a reference, it could be taken to mean almost anything.

Given that whether something is or is not a consumer unit can similarly affect whether or not a particular job is notifiable, one might think that they would have included a specific definition or a reference to some other document in which it is defined, as with "special location."

I fear its far from being as simple as that. The "reasonable man" might well say that a circuit was 'new' if one had replaced every component (OPD, cables and accessories) of a pre-existing circuit - but many (or most) people would probably regard that as non-notifiable. Similarly if a house-wide multi-socket circuit was added to what started as one socket (or even JB) connected by a few inches of cable to an OPD in a CU. Conversely, he might well say that a circuit was 'not new' just because the OPD had been changed to one of a different (but appropriate) rating - but at least some would say that constitutes creation of a 'new circuit'.
Indeed. I think the general interpretation most people have put on it is that if there's already a fuse or MCB feeding something, then you can add or change anything you like which is fed from that fuse/MCB without creating a new circuit, even if the original circuit was 2 feet of cable to a single socket and you extend it all around the house. But without a specific definition of "new circuit," there's still room for argument about what it actually means.

There are at least some, even in this forum, who believe that 'changing the characteristics of a circuit' by changing the OPD to one of a different In constitutes creation of a new circuit.
Extending an existing branch circuit (adding on to a radial, inserting extra cable and sockets on a ring etc.) is changing the characteristics of the circuit too (different loop impedance etc.), but would they regard that as creating a new circuit? If so, then it would preclude making almost any changes without notification!

In the earlier set of regulations for notification there was the language about "where circuit protective characteristics are not affected" or something similar, and I know that seemed to cause a lot of confusion too, because it was written in such a way that the condition applied to certain jobs but not others. Some people tried incorrectly to include that for all work.

... and is the "reasonable man" being unreasonable by believing that replacing every component of a circuit renders it a 'new circuit'? .... Indeed. But if you 'replaced' all the wool (or whatever), he might well regard it as a 'new sock', just as if you replaced the cable, accessories and OPD of a final circuit.

It's not straightforward, even for the "reasonable man"!
And if we're talking about what seems reasonable to the reasonable man, how would he feel about it being notifiable to run completely new wiring and sockets around the house and connect to a newly installed MCB, but it being non-notifiable to disconnect and remove all the old wiring from an MCB, then run his new wiring and connect to the existing MCB?
 
No it couldn't, because an extension lead is not an ASSEMBLY as defined in IEC 61439 series. ... This is why I often regret trying to clarify matters by posting extracts from standards - people take the words out of context.
I understand your view - but, as I'm sure you will understand, from our side of the fence to be provided with an extract without the associated material necessary for us to 'put it into context' can be of fairly limited value.

Kind Regards, John
 
For comparison, look at how for the purposes of defining whether or not some job is notifiable, the Building Regulations refer to BS7671 for the definition of a special location (do they still say BS7671:2001, or has that now been updated to 2008?). If the Building Regulations had used the term without such a reference, it could be taken to mean almost anything.
No. They list the actual definitions of special location.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/3119/regulation/6/made
 
No it couldn't, because an extension lead is not an ASSEMBLY as defined in IEC 61439 series.
I understand your view - but, as I'm sure you will understand, from our side of the fence to be provided with an extract without the associated material necessary for us to 'put it into context' can be of fairly limited value.
Doesn't that just illustrate precisely the problem here? It's fair enough that within that standard "assembly" is defined somewhere in such a way that it excludes a multi-way extension lead. But without that definition, we can only use our everyday interpretation of what "assembly" means.

If the Building Regulations use the term "consumer unit" but do not define it explicitly, or include a reference to a definition elsewhere, we're left trying to interpret what was actually meant by the term.

No. They list the actual definitions of special location.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/3119/regulation/6/made
Thanks. So again, why do they not explicitly define what "consumer unit" means?

It's also interesting to note that those current regulations make only the replacement of a consumer unit notifiable. So if you remove some sort of distribution equipment which does not meet the definition of "a consumer unit" and install a new board in its place which does meet the definition of "a consumer unit," then it wouldn't be notifiable since you've not actually replaced a consumer unit, merely removed some other type of equipment and installed a new consumer unit.
 
It's also interesting to note that those current regulations make only the replacement of a consumer unit notifiable. So if you remove some sort of distribution equipment which does not meet the definition of "a consumer unit" and install a new board in its place which does meet the definition of "a consumer unit," then it wouldn't be notifiable since you've not actually replaced a consumer unit, merely removed some other type of equipment and installed a new consumer unit.
...and vice versa would be notifiable.
 

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